April 12, 2004 | View Comments (57) | Category: 9rules
Summary: Critique Forever Geek (that rhymes) and a warning about the destruction of Whitespace.
Before I take this site down for a week I thought I would let you guys rip the Forever Geek redesign to shreds. I would say it is about 70% complete, but better get this out of the way now. Personal critique:
Taking Whitespace down for a week, you can still view the archives of course, but the frontpage is going to have one of those generic splash page things. The last four entries have sucked and that is due to motivation for posting here. Forever Geek is much more fun as I can live with that design. So yeah, in one week stage 1 of the redesign should be posted and the whole process can begin along with some more articles on Project Management.
Trackback URL: http://9rules.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-tb.cgi/206
...browsercams is taking too long...
Are you aware that you can specify Browsercam to only render a site on Safari?
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
The IA needs a tweek. The focal point seems to grab me to the right handside column first off. I would suggest a layout redesign: maybe move the logo under the navigation, bringing the weight to the left hand side of the page.
I think the navigation is of equal importance as the featured article, so maybe use the same colours, and highlight the search? I'd embed the featured article into the navigation, myself.
The Google Ads need to move: the last entries section needs to be brought to sight. I didn't even knew it existed until I was examining the page right now.
The navigation could have a background colour; when it coincides with the content the individual links can be a little difficult to make out. Just a bit of padding-bottom with a non-transparent background-color would do it. Maybe a grey border-bottom as well?
I agree it needs colour, if not for anything else to distinguish it from WS. Silvers have connotations of technology, maybe take a step away from your ultra-minimilist clean lines tendencies and try a brushed aluminium look? Or maybe style it with curves that look like the profile of a car... just bouncing ideas but I can feel a brand developing.
David House
JC: Yeah I know. It's not from anyone complaining, but my own expectations. That's all.
Mark: Yeah, but life is easier with the browser in front of you.
David: I am definitely looking into some curves. After reading your suggestions, I may switch the color scheme from the left to right. Have the entries alternating background colors which draw the eye to the left side and also improve scannability.
Google Ads, well these things make money so moving them versus worrying about how they effect the design becomes a battle within itself.
All in all some great ideas that I will have to consider.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Oh and does my cool fixed navigation work on your browsers? I know for IE it won't stick, but in Firefox it works. Truly persistent navigation I call it.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
David -
It's odd (or maybe I am) that you say you can't get your focus off the right side. I keep going to the left and can't seem to want to even look at the right side.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
In Opera, the top of the right hand column is stuck under the bottom of the left.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
I don't see any problem with the location of the google ads. The previous entries need the full column width, which they wouldn't get if they replaced the google ads. Also, if you're reading the entire page, you'll see them before you hit the bottom, and since those are entries prior to the entries on the page itself... I just don't see how it's an issue.
As for brushed aluminum... ugh. overdone. My vote's still on the greenscreen look.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
or maybe a little davinci stuff... one of the classical geeks... subtle background pattern of davinci drawings.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
You know, the layout looks ok in higher resolutions (like you have, Paul) but loses something (usability?) in lower resolutions like 1024 x 768.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Just one more thought, and then I'm done here.
As far as branding goes -
Every geek I've known has been anything but a minimalist. From my experience, they're somewhat scatter-brained with no sense of style. Their office space is cluttered with notes and other paperwork from a multitude of simultaneous projects; they come in at least 2 hours after everyone else (sometimes wearing the same clothes from the previous day. Their 1970’s era car or VW bus, which has been washed since it was new, has the whole floorboard covered with remnants of their life.
At home, their dining room table serves as a workbench for the dozens of computers and peripherals sitting in a million pieces. The interior design comes straight out of Grateful Dead Gazette, and their spouses (or significant others) are usually just as attractive as they.
So, if this is your intended audience – why such a clean, unfettered look for the site? Wouldn’t that design be almost alien to that culture?
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Hmm... 2003 sonata I wash weekly... nice interior design with a mix between oriental and modern, though it's definitely still in progress... and my dining room table is clean except for my tea set and I think I left my mail on it yesterday.
guess I don't qualify as a geek then, huh? That's just one segment of geek culture, Mark... you should read this.
Of course... that's because I have a dedicated office, and all the geeky mess is in there. :-)
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Those seem pretty clean to me. Even the messy geeks like to keep what is online clean.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
I really like the way the nav scrolls with you. That's very nice... I'm not sure if I like the content showing in between the nav buttons when I scroll (solid white bar might be nice there as well), but all in all, it's slick.
Also, use lots of orange and yellow. Those are always good.
;-)
Josh Williams (http://www.yellowlane.com)
Looks much better now. It was definitely broken in Safari before, but I didn't say anything 'cause I figured you knew and would fix it.
I agree that the navigation leaves something to be desired as far as readability is concerned. Having the buttons appear in the middle of a post when scrolled is somewhat distracting. It might be better served by a fixed full-width bar or maybe even a gif or png with transparency which the text would disappear behind on supported browsers.
Jason (http://izzywizzy.org)
Hey Scrivs, what shade of grey are you gonna use next?
I can hardly wait man! I mean just imagine the possibilities... hmm... maybe #333? Ooh that would look nice!
If you're feeling NAUGHTY, you might consider some #ddd text on #fff background! Oh man, that'd be sweet!
;)
Mike (http://phark.typepad.com)
does the fixed main menu have some bonus usability issues that the standard "back to top" link at the end of each entry couldnt also provide? for people with sub-par browsers like IE, you might consider adding those anchor links to the end of each entry if your goal with the fixed menu is to give people quicker access to the main navigation. users in supported browsers would still have their menu right at the top of the screen and users in crap browsers wouldnt be forced to scroll all the way to the top each time they wanted to access another section of the site.
.02
eris (http://www.erisfree.com)
Mike actually I was going to go for red and black...I hear that's the new thing :)
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Scrivs - You might check the source on Joel's site... he has a nice static nav bar that works in IE, though his is on the side. And as jason suggested above, a full width bar would be much less disconcerting.
Of course, if you really want to achieve that effect 100% reliably, you could always use frames. ::ducking::
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Hey, I haven't seen FG since it was founded...the design has changed, and it looks great!
The sizing of the columns is a little odd, but it works to great effect. I wouldn't change it.
A logo would indeed work well above the left column on the left side.
Some wort of visual activity beneath the right column might do to balance out the page when the left column is longer than the right. Then again, that might be distracting. It looks fine as-is.
The only change I can immediately recommend is to throw a solid or translucent backdrop behind your navigation. It's distracting when the tabs go above the body text, and it doesn't seem to stand out as much as it should.
Overall, I'm impressed with FG's approach. Good to see a minimalist design done in a unique way.
Chris Vincent (http://dris.dyndns.org:8080/)
My 0.02
Scrivs, as far a color goes (if you decide to use any) you could always start with pastels. Kind of a grayed-color thing????
Can you get the google ads left border all the way left? Might help clean up the grid.
Lower case Forever_Geek?
Unix Time Stamps?
Shouldn't there be a version number some where or some claim to alpha or beta-ness? ;)
On the search: Is there some geekness line prompty glyph you could use? Or a grep command?
I like the two columns, a lot, but the seem flip flopped to me. Can't explain it though.
dru (http://www.drusellers.com)
As JC says, you can hack fixed positioning to work in IE6, as I do on my own site. But I'm confused, your nav bar isn't fixed in Opera 7.1, Netscape 7.1, or Firebird (0.7), all of which support fixed positioning. Maybe I'm looking at a time when you've made some disadvantageous change to the stylesheet?
Joel (http://biroco.com/about.htm)
The nav is no longer fixed. I just made it absolute. Your eyes do not deceive you Joel.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
A couple of questions:
Can we get rid of Arial? I'd prefer to see Verdana, it seems like a nicer font. Just my opinion.
I know you like the darkish red color and that's fine ... it works well with white and grey ... but I don't think it works well with the bright orange in the 9rules logo ... if anything, a Texas burnt orange would be better, but I would suggest something besides orange.
just my thoughts
cm (http://telerana.f2o.org)
one more thing ... I like the pixel font logo alot ... but it might look a little better and cleaner if you un-anti-ailased the font in graphics file, presumably Photoshop ... it will coincide nicer with the crisp, clean lines you have throughout the rest of the site.
Great work overall, though and impressive on the time it took to redesign it ... you're a man among boys here, Scrivs
cm (http://telerana.f2o.org)
There ya go Chuck...all for you :)
Not really, but you were moving in the direction I was already.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Oh and the font was using anti-aliasing...I had to get rid of it to clean it up.
All the people here put me to shame. They would have never done such a design in the first plafce :) I guess if that makes me a man then fine...woohoo!
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Just a suggestion unrelated to the visual design - in RSS readers, users are presented with the complete story, often (always?) relating to a linked title. The news reader doesn't know the target of that link, so if one wants to see the target, they must click through to the permalink and then from there to the link target.
I can think of two solutions: 1. Add a (redundant) link to the bottom of each post, perhaps only for the RSS version; or, 2. Associate the target link directly with the news item (since the whole story is presented in the RSS reader). I would prefer option 1 since I often open posts just for site context.
Owen Rodda
Hey man -
Your logo is anti-aliased as well - it's causing the bottom squares to blur out.
The site's looking better.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Scrivs, more help on the navigation:
http://www.youngpup.net/index
That has fixed positioning in IE.
If you look at the CSS, the trick is to position your element absolutely, give it a z-index, etc., then wrap your whole site in a container, position that absolutely, top: 0; left: 0; z-index: [less than the other element]; overflow: auto;
Tom
What are your thoughts on making the Forever Geek logo smaller. I find the logo a bit overwhelming, myself. But I am not a true geek either. Love the versioning ;). I lookforward to some evolution on the 9rules (or is it ninerules?) logo. It seems a little unfinished still. Love watching you work. dru
dru (http://www.drusellers.com)
It's really coming together nicely! Great job! And it really feels like it's in the same family as whitespace.
Jennifer Grucza (http://jennifergrucza.com)
I think the logo is a good size, the only comment I would make (other than the blurring, which I see you fixed) would be to maybe add a little whitespace between the block and the 9 - it looks a bit crowded now.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Mark, yeah I noticed how crammed it was, but had to run out for the rest of the day so I haven't had a chance to touch it up yet.
Scrivs (http://forevergeek.com)
About sizing up pixel fonts: they have to be sized up in multiples. A 7px pixel font can only be used at 14px, 21px, 28px etc. Size needs to be set in pixels rather than points of course.
Also, fractional widths should be turned off in Photoshop, there should be no anti-aliasing, and text needs to be entered with justification off.
Any one of these things will explain why your masthead looks horrible. Not that it will look much better when properly done.
Joel (http://biroco.com/)
"Any one of these things will explain why your masthead looks horrible. Not that it will look much better when properly done."
Well I guess I shall keep it now. I like it. Guess you never played video games so you wouldn't get the relevancy of the fonts. Not meant to be perfect. Can't please the world I suppose.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Ah, the deliberately horrible school of web design. I see.
Maybe it looks better on your monitor, don't you look at websites through the wrong end of a telescope?
Joel (http://biroco.com/)
joel... it's supposed to look blocky and pixellated, not smoothe. that's the entire point. It's geeky. like an old 8 bit video game, or an old 8 pin printer, or a console font blown up big.
That said, I think scrivs could have picked a better font to do it with, since that one's not really a console font, so far as I can tell.
I could mention that it would have been more obvious perhaps if he'd done it in a green or amber font on a black background (to emulate an old computer terminal), but I've nagged at him enough on that note.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Okay maybe I am missing something here, but I used the logo because it reminds me of Atari back in the 80's. Exactly what lesson of web design am I messing with here? Branding? Not allowed to use blocky text? I am confused here.
I think it gives the site the personality it was lacking (sure you have something smart to say here).
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Paul -
I think you're missing the point a bit on Joel's post. First and perhaps most importantly, JC is right - this is your site, and you are free to do with it whatever you wish.
That being said however, for as long as this site has been up, you have approached your posts from a position of authority - whether it was summation straight out of a textbook, or from your experiences - you have written on the finer points of IA, design, branding and typography. For better or worse, you have critiqued or criticized some of the biggest and best, most in the name of "they should've known better."
Now it is pointed out to you that there are specific "rules" for using pixelated fonts and specifically how its current implementation is affecting your IA, design, branding and typography negatively, and you blow it off with a cavalier attitude.
Is that really fair?
I guess this all gets back to my response about the over response of a public redesign. In this case, I would think it would've been far better just to do it and get feedback later - as many of the sites you would consider peers have done. If it were your purpose to approach this more from a systems analyst position, then perhaps maybe it would've been better to get ideas and feedback before beginning in order to find out what your audience needs were. After some point, when you've gotten sufficient information, you cut off the comments and proceed with the design as determined by the needs.
But again, it's your site, and as I've noted earlier in agreement with you, it's far better to try and fail, then to fail to try. But, just as importantly, it's also important to listen and not just hear.
Not a judgement, just an observation.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Hey Joel, don't have you better things to do with your time than leave degrading and worthless comments on someone's blog?
I mean c'mon man, go ride a bike, go walk the dog, go pick up some chicks, just don't waste our time as well as your time with comments that aren't constructive.
Mike
Mark and Joel: I read the post with great interest. Learned about the rules of pixel fonts and how they should be increased in increments. Great advice. Then I came across this:
"Any one of these things will explain why your masthead looks horrible. Not that it will look much better when properly done."
Sorry, but that kind of made me forget everything else that was said. I open these conversations up because I do respect and enjoy the feedback I get, but blatantly coming out and saying something is horrible and there is nothing I can do to fix it short of getting rid of the whole thing? Thanks for the help.
Sure this whole site would have been done much better obviously if I would have approached it the way I do with client's and then just thrown it up for you guys, but I decided to wing it and that is the way it is.
I have written on this blog with an open mind and open ears on every single post. Yeah I critique people and I openly let people critique me. If my critiques come off the way Joel's does then I wholehearily apologize to the whole web world.
I am really confused on how the whole logo throws off my "IA, design, branding and typography". But hey he called me out on it and that's cool. Maybe he is right in that it just hoses the whole site. I guess I was just looking for a little more civil way to go about it.
I don't run around screaming "this is my site and this is how things should be done". If I did I don't think I would even have comments open.
This is getting too long. Again you can't please everyone.
"Maybe it looks better on your monitor, don't you look at websites through the wrong end of a telescope?"
Mark you are right, I obviously wasn't being fair...
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
I no longer want to have sex with Forever Geek... *cries and cries and cries*
and hi again.
Alanna (http://www.virginmoistness.com)
Oh shit. I should read comments before I post my silly nonsense.
That wasn't really intended as "feedback." Constructive or otherwise. It was more of an on-topic hello... *has apologetic sex with Forever Geek*
Alanna (http://www.virginmoistness.com)
Mark -
Joel's advice on pixelated (actually I think he's really meaning bitmapped as opposed to truetype) fonts is great (it's also very basic). But it only applies if you're trying to minimize the jagged appearance, which paul was not trying to do.
I really fail to understand why some people here are getting so bent out of shape about this. while I wouldn't consider Joel's comments worthless as a general rule, they do frequently exhibit have a decidedly acidic edge which is most unappealing in anyone.
Rather than engaging in a pointless flame war, or bickering over differing opinions on design, I'll simply say that tastes differ, Paul has a goal on this site which is not particularly in line with the average website, and if $user don't like it, I'm sure $user and the esteemed Mr. Scoble both can read it via RSS and be perfectly happy with the content sans presentation.
And now, I must sleep.
JC (http://http;//www.thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Hi again.
First, the next redesign looks a lot better. The focal point has switched, I can now easily read the posts. However, I still believe you're giving too much emphasis toward the Featured Article section. This isn't an article site, it's a linkdump, and maybe just a mention in the sidebar, as Stopdesign would suffice.
Second, I really would suggest bringing Past Entries to the top of the sidebar, to sit just under the search. With the magnitude of content you have settling between four and seven posts a day, chances are that the reader has missed some since their last visit. Give them a quick recap — your Past Entries section is perfect. However, please include the 'current' entries into this sectino! For the reasons I've just outlined, it'd be a lot more useful like that.
If you're keen to go with the pixel font brand, make all the section headers ('Latest_News', 'Featured_Article' etc) in that font. It'd help considerably.
I assume you're still working on the curvy redesign ;)
David House
Just giving my opinion. Trying to be helpful. Being honest.
People don't like that. People don't understand that. People want me to be nice or find something better to do with my time.
That much I agree with. I'll find something better to do with my time.
Cheers
Joel (http://biroco.com/)
I'm done critiquing Forever Geek, but do have one question out of curiosity -
I was just visiting over there, and was reading some of the posts. Instinctively I hit the "home" tab expecting to pop back to Whitespace and (of course) it didn't happen. The logo is not hot yet and their are no links to the rest of the network.
Question: In your current design, where are you planning to put links to the rest of your sites - or are you going to force everyone to return to the portal first by clicking on the logo?
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
I'm thinking there will be links to the rest of the 9rules sites on that strip at the top where the 9rules logo is at? At least til paul has more sites than he does room...
and were you able to get to 9rules.com by clicking the logo, Mark? I couldn't at the moment, but scrivs may be doing yet another change as I type here. :-)
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
No, the link wasn't clickable - I just assumed it will be.
If the plan is to have individual links to the other sites, I would think they should all be located in the same area for consistency - since it appears the design is going to be pretty standard across the board.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
No the link is not yet clickable because the new 9rules site is not up. I know in this case it would be best to not even have 9rules Network logo then, but it helps me get off my ass and continue to push because I know I have you guys to tell me it doesn't work :-)
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
"People don't like that. People don't understand that. People want me to be nice"
Actually, people just want you to stop being a condescending asshole and cease taking it as a personal affront when someone doesn't agree with you.
I like your work a great deal. I often find your comments interesting and even useful. But I get tired of seeing you sneer and snipe at Paul as if he were a foolish child who cannot possibly understand the big complicated world of grown up design, where you are the sole and highest authority. And somehow, I suspect I'm not the only one.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
"Sneering and sniping"? I don't think you know what sneering and sniping actually are JC, sneering and sniping is me saying when are you going to design yourself a decent site and stop giving it large here with your "informed" knowledge of web design, when actually your own site is unbelievably mediocre. Where is all this great web design you're always talking about, because it isn't evident in your own blog. That's "sneering and sniping" JC. Otherwise I quite like you too.
As for my comments here, well if you and Paul want to get precious about it, feel free. Personally I'm just someone who isn't easily impressed, that's the long and short of it. If you want to see that as "condescending" towards the 20-something generation, feel free, have as much of an inferiority complex as you can muster.
No, I'm not much of a geek really, I'm just passing through. But so far most of what I've seen of the "web design community" is a bunch of people slapping each other on the back and wanting to make it big in some clique or other. I remain an outsider to that, and if I sometimes come across as scathing then put it down to my nature. Anyway, I like bad ends, it's usually the way I persuade myself to get down to something worthwhile. I've enjoyed what I've read at whitespace over the past months, and, contrary to what you say JC, I admire Scriv's keen enthusiasm. But frankly I'm off now. This isn't me taking offence ya yank bastard, this is me moving on and saying goodbye. Hey, why don't you have a look at my new CSS design:
http://biroco.com/yijing/
Joel (http://biroco.com/yijing/)
Steps to be followed while optimizing a website:
1. Search for the keyword in Google and find out how many websites are there with the same keyword. So you will know how many websites will have to be defeated in the competition.
2. If your web-site uses frames - then use the No-Frame Tags.
3. Meta-Tags: Use thse ones only.... But they should be short and simple.
Meta-Tag Description
Meta-Tag Keyword
4. Use as less javascript as possible.
5. If you use any client side-scripting like the javascripts, use the NO-Script tags.
6. Use Title tags for Text links.
7. Put a Site-Map on every page of the website.
8. Try and get as many backlinks as possible.
9. For Applets: Try to minimize it's use.
10. For Macromedia Flash: Use as less as possible.
11. Get the website listed in DMOZ and other realted search directories.
12. Never spam a web page to get it listed in the search engine. It might cost banning from the same and permanant hits problem.
That's it. All these things should help. :)
Nainil Chheda.
Search Engine Optimization India (http://services.eliteral.com/)
12. Never spam a web page to get it listed in the search engine. It might cost banning from the same and permanant hits problem.
Sorry, but that comment looks a lot like spam. Useful information no doubt, but it was just funny to me that the last point matched exactly what I was thinking you were doing. Oh well, I upgraded MT so the redirects kick in now, so no harm done if it is spam. If not (and please forgive me) then thanks for the list.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
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#1
"The last four entries have sucked"
I hadn't noticed... I think someone needs to remind you that it's your website and you're allowed to have a little fun on it now and then.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)