April 08, 2004 | View Comments (78) | Category: 9rules
Summary: My initial thoughts when it comes to Redesign 2004
Whenever I start a new venture (eg. redesign) I open my notepad and start jotting notes. When thinking about the redesign for Whitespace the notes started to become quite extensive. I was finding myself adding new features while also keeping the ones that I already had. Before I even began to sketch some layouts I realized that all of this information was going to lead to a cluttered screen. However, I wanted to show the information somehow. I was painting myself into a corner to say the least.
This brainstorm session led me to think about my other sites as well (The CSS Vault, Forever Geek, Version 2, etc.) and how I wanted to integrate all of them so that I truly did have a "9rules Network". After this is dawned on me that I wanted to redesign all of my sites because there was new features and improvements that they all needed and that I was becoming a mini-Nick Denton without all the money (now all I need is that sex blog).
All of the sites had changes coming to them except the main 9rules site. This site has gone untouched for a very long time. Sometimes I even forget it is there. I associate the 9rules domain with Whitespace. That is a problem in my mind. From a business perspective, any work comes from referrals and whatnot and since I am in the job hunt I had to consider how irrelevant the site was becoming in the grand scheme of things.
With all of this in mind here is some of the features that I wanted to add to Whitespace:
Overall here are some things I wanted:
Now the current layout and IA do not allow for massive changes. Hell, it barely allows for small changes. This caused me to brainstorm for an extra five minutes trying to come up with the uber layout to accomodate all of this. Yet there was a voice in my head that constantly told me to "Keep It Simple". What would you do?
I already know what I am going to do (mostly) and will discuss it more tomorrow, but I would like to hear and discuss your thought process. A lot of this whole redesign craziness came about from talks with Mike who has some interesting ideas on his blog and is also going through a redesign.
Trackback URL: http://9rules.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-tb.cgi/201
i'm on one of the last legs of my redesign and my brainstorming went along the same lines (lots of different features + uncluttered design). one of the solutions that i was working on to manage all of the information and still keep it simple was to map out the feaures in a grid layout instead of the traditional "blog" layout.
eris
Brian: How about developing a 9rules Network logo that could be placed on all the sites which allow them to keep their individualism, yet show their part of the network?
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Scrivs: Definitely. I'm not sure exactly what it needs to look like, but maybe have a 9rules icon or something, followed by "css vault", "white space" etc etc. Maybe in different color variations that match the site, but the 9rules part stays the same. I don't know... you have a ton of ways to approach it.
Brian (http://www.litzdesigns.com)
Are you going to develop user profiles for your sites?
;)
Matthew Oliphant (http://usabilityworks.typepad.com)
You used to have a 9rules logo, didn't you? 9 blocks in a 3x3 square or something I think... Nice and simple.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
I don't know if this is helpful or not, but I found Christina's post on what Yahoo is doing inspirational as far as keeping everything seperate but equal as far as design -v- brand consistency.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
JC: You are correct and I need to bring that back in some type of incarnation.
Brian: That was my thinking.
Mark: Nice.
Matt: I was thinking about doing one or two.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Still nobody has really approached the redesign. How to get all that information?
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
You could have a similar layout and IA throughout the 9 rules "network", demarcating the varoius sites within the "network" with different colors, images (?). Something like what Doug Bowman does for different sections of his site.
But it would be a challenge to maintain their disticntness and also make them part of the network.
Would be very interested to see what you come up with :-)
chugs (http://chugsdesigns.com)
But then you are ignoring the fact that each site has its own distinct content. The content dictates the design remember?
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
1. Lose the google ads
2. Change "last 10 entries" to "recently commented"
3. Implement a network-wide search
4. Change previous 3 entries with ads / info boxes for network
5. Change your tab structure to be consistent across the entire network
6. Define 9 Rules
7. Before anything, work on the textual content of the main site (9 Rules.com).
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
1. Those pay the site's rent.
2. Okay
3. Network-wide search? Don't think that is possible within my realm of knowledge. The sites span different domains.
4. I think the 3 entries works.
5. Again this takes away from the individualism of each site and forces the system to fit the content.
6. I agree.
7. Hehe, you just won't let this one go huh?
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
I'd let the content dictate the design... just add a 30-50px tall header on each page, with the 9rules network logo on each page, links to each network site, and a search box that lets you search the entire 9rules network, or just the site you're currently on. :-)
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
"Network-wide search? Don't think that is possible within my realm of knowledge. The sites span different domains."
Sure it is. Set up a search engine, there are several OSS options... have it spider hourly the entire network.
Or you could use Atomz, which would be free up to 500 pages
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
"...The sites span different domains..."
...takes away from the individualism of each site and forces the system to fit the content..."
Ok, so I guess you're going to have to define exactly what the 9 Rules Network is. Because, at least for me, a network establishes some commonality beyond a logo / link.
If you're wanting to income of this project eventually, you're going to have to cross-market all the sites you plan on having.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
From my amateur viewpoint, the more consistency across sites the more identifiable. If you had a 9 block logo, perhaps a small version could be used for bullets. If the blocks were unique, perhaps just 4 of them or 6 of them would work when necessary.
If you could make all headings unique and same on all sites, you'd quickly be identifiable - even if your body text and layout was different from page to page.
Or if your navigation system was visually unique in some way, that might be enough, combined with logo on all pages.
If you can let your creativity come through (perhaps do a braincalm instead of a brainstorm for a change) I am sure you will find many ways of achieving consistency with originality and practicality.
Peter (http://www.mouldingname.info/home.html)
Still nobody has really approached the redesign. How to get all that information?
Do the user profiles first. If (assumption here) you want your sites to be adressing your audience needs, find out what tose are first. Then the overall IA and design should present itself.
I was just teasing in my first comment, but the focus on what to put where, what to leave and what to take away seems a bit premature, especially if you are going for a netwrok redesign.
Again, assumptions and opinions abound in this comment.
Matthew Oliphant (http://usabilityworks.typepad.com)
Re: my last
That would be wanting to make income off this project...
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
8. Take out the extra "e" in the (currently) "forevergeeeks" link in this post. (Sorry, couldn't help myself).
You said you've already decided what you're going to do, but I'll be brave and share some thoughts, based on what you wrote in this post.
- Consolidate: "blog, mini-blog, articles" all goes in one section (writings) then sub-navigate, right?
- Inspirational: how's that different from CSS Vault?
- Tighter integration of 9Rules: A logo is a good start, how about other common elements, at least the links all in the same spot on the screen, right now you have to dig for the connection (not so much here but definitely on the other sites.)
- More traffic: What kind of traffic, sorority girls? Shoes. Frat boys? Porn.
I hope this is what you had in mind. An opinion from a novice. Ciao.
Hasan (http://hasan.gopages.net/)
But how do you approach user profiles for different sites that might have a different audience? Many people who go the vault do not come here and vice versa.
Again, I already know what I wish to do, but I like this discussion.
Guess I will have to start looking into this whole search thing also.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
The inspirational is different because many times the site will be done in tables. I will describe why I enjoy it in more detail than I would the vault.
Good thoughts Hasan.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
And obviously no one can read my mind so I would like to thank everyone for their thoughts and ideas so far. Kind of hard to offer suggestions when all the information isn't present.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
So, you're thinking about having a repository of sites that may not be the best designed or streamlined...that could benefit the web development community as we strive to create better and better online experiences?
Hmmm, what a good idea. ;)
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Consider the OSDN network (not the best designed websites but...): SourceForge - NewsForge - Linux.com - ThinkGeek - Slashdot - freshmeat. They all use seperate domains, and different designs, content, and purposes; yet all have a small unobtrusive (the reast of the sites are another matter) header across the top with the OSND logo and link. To top it all off, they include a search link that can search all or any one of the sites.
How would you integrate the search? Off the top of my head: create a search engine for each site with a way to call it using search terms in the url (much like Google and others do) then write a script that submits the search terms to each site and gathers all the results. Maybe have them return as xml or something. Now, how to sort and display all that data from all the different sites; I'm not so sure there. Would be interesting to try, albeit time consuming.
waylman (http://achinghead.com)
Heh, before you posted that waylman I was thinking that the only way to achieve a branded effort would be to make all the site look the same, which seems to be what many people are suggesting, however the OSDN is what I am more aiming for I think.
I already have the new Forever Geek redesign anyways and don't think I will be running to change it again.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
isn't that exactly what I suggested a few posts up? Though I suggested using a seperate search product instead of futzing around with aggregating search results from individual sites and xml stuff... which would be interesting, but shouldn't be necessary.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Just to echo Mark's suggestion above:
Before anything, work on the textual content of the main site (9 Rules.com).
If you're going to call it "the 9rules network", 9rules.com should have some overarching content, identity, philosophy, something.
OSDN has its open-source thing going on, so 9rules should also have some stated goal or area of interest to help tie the whole network together.
I'm certainly not saying that you have to work out that part first -- it'll likely some together as you review your various sites and see how they fit together.
flexiblefine
Mark - Too bad Paul hasn't. heh. Paul, read your homepage. Your description of white space has a typo in it. :-)
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
But how do you approach user profiles for different sites that might have a different audience? Many people who go the vault do not come here and vice versa.
I have to jet quick to a meeting, so do you want me to answer via a comment, or via email?
Matthew Oliphant (http://usabilityworks.typepad.com)
JC -
I'm still trying to figure out the string pulling comment you and Paul found so funny from the "Redesign 2004" thread, however.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
JC - yeah that is what you suggested, but I wasn't sure Paul was getting it (no offence Paul) so I offered an example. I meant to refer to your comment but forgot. As far as the search thing goes. As stated, that was off the top of my head and no doubt one of many possable solutions. Just checked out your link to Xapian. Nice features. It even has php, perl and python bindings. Sweet! Adding this to my bookmarks. Thanks for the tip.
waylman (http://achinghead.com)
Okay guys, just forget about the 9rules homepage right now...or don't. In a way you are heading in the right direction of what I was thinking. Any content on the 9rules site though...JUST FORGET ABOUT IT :)
Yeah, I never followed the "quite" joke. Figured it was a midwest thing :-P If you really wanna know the string joke then email me...its one of those not work safe things.
Oliphant: You can email if you want, but maybe everyone wishes to hear your thoughts. If you think it will be too long just email me and I will incorporate it in another entry.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Well now everyone can get the "quite" joke (hint: check the new description). Also gotta go fix Forever Geek. JC let me break it so blame him.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
I'm trying to think of a non-visual branding and I can't (except for a jingle or a slogan). Musicians, perfumes, think-tanks, foods, all of which are mostly non-visual products, use visual cues to achieve better marketing. So maybe not "make them all look the same", but have one strong visually linking element (VW-logo, Movado-watch shape, Blue Man Group-color).
Hasan (http://hasan.gopages.net/)
...JUST FORGET ABOUT IT
Ok, ok, it's forgotten - Damn.
Why don't you let that die, and make it the Whitespace network. Regsiter the domain (assuming you haven't already) and link everything off this.
Geez dude, try some Midol ;)
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Domain's already taken... and it's a flash site... heh. I went to whitespace.com one day not thinking about it and thought Paul had gone bonkers.
Between strings and midol, I have to cringe at what the new google algorithm will come up with....
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Once you see my plans you will understand why I politely ;-P asked you to stop talking about the content on that site.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Hey this site is obviously about positive thinking hence the Google ads for it.
Hasan: It looks as though every site will be branded by the 9rules logo (a new one) which will make it part of a network.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
You sound like the Pengiun wringing his hands together and telling his minions how he's going to do in the caped crusader.
Wah wah wah waahhh...
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
There will be no penguins involved in this redesign. None. Only quality content. Maybe I will add a gambling site as well. We can place bets on how long it will take before I actually even start redesigning.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Hey, your bottom ad says you can change your life in 20 minutes - maybe that might help speed up this redesign process.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
I am not an artist but found it easy to come up with some logo and design ideas for 9rules here
I'm sure an artist could produce something good out of this theme (which is a bit corny, I admit, but I love corny jokes:)
Peter (http://www.mouldingname.info/home.html)
heh. I'd hate to see the soprano that can manage a high G... or is that a double-high G?
Or if you're in bass cleff, it's a b in the treble... that's high even for a good tenor to hit without falsetto...
and I stopped studying voice 8 years ago and I think I've forgotten all the technical bits... heh.
i still like scrivs' old 9 box logo. The 9 ruled lines thing is cute I guess, but doesn't really work for me. To be obvious the logo would have to be too big. Maybe if it was a photograph with 8 pencil drawn lines and a ruler laid down with the pencil almost finished drawing the 9th one. And we know how scrivs feels about photos.
And of course with the redesign thing there'd have to be eraser leavings all over the place and a couple of pencils used down to the nub, with the other end bearing obvious signs of thoughtful mastication. heh.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Tic-Tac-Toe anyone? The top one is like what I used to have for the 9rules logo. I like the idea of slightly changing it the blocks for the different sites. Hopefully, the number of sites I put up don't out number the total combinations I could do (well maybe that would be a good thing).
Thank you Mark and Peter for the ideas. Are we the only 4 people on the web not really working today?
Scrivs (http://9rules.com/whitespace/)
Yeh Peter, I agree. It goes so far beyond that sometimes it's way out there.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
I really like those, Mark.
I was in meetings half the day, screwing off the rest (and I must admit I was playing puzzle bobble on my celphone through most of the second active directory meeting of the day as well)
I'd have done forever geek in all black boxes with the center top and center bottom green... colon symbol. Or maybe all 3 on the bottom green, flashing... prompt. heh.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
And Paul... is the Roe really a big deal for you? Looking at it, it just doesn't seem like it really fits as a site... it's more like a test app for learning how to interface with amazon... there's not really anything there that *you* put in, is there?
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Well the Roe was an experiment that I am going to continue with on a larger scale. Need to get a dedicated server first however to finish those plans. Surprisingly, it does bring in money.
Scrivs (http://9rules.com/whitespace/)
Mark, I like those.
JC, sounds like some good ideas.
I chose horizontal rules instead of blocks because they are easier to stretch vertically or horizontally or even for full pages and still be low bandwidth. And probably easier to make into a background than blocks. Artists! Where are you?
Peter (http://www.mouldingname.info/home.html)
I'm not sure what you are expecting (I'm not sure I understood the question).
I'd describe formally each site in the network and see what they really are about, and who frequents them. Might sound like some detective work.
Then I'd look for the influencing factors. These factors — big or small — would impact your re-design. Factors can also be categorized into organizational, technological, and product. Hmm, I guess you can replace ‘product’ with content. I am borrowing stuff I know from the Siemens Four-View model in software architecture X_X Briefly, each factor has a flexibility and an impact rating. Flexibility determines how much you can play with the factor and impact determines how far-reaching the consequences the factor can have. From this list of factors, I will see that some of them conflict.
This is the next step where I must identify issues and form strategies to try to reduce/minimize/eliminate their impact. Strategies may involve trade-offs. I swap the detective hat for the juggler hat.
With all the issues and their associated strategies, I will try to sketch a configuration of the re-design using components and connectors. Remember that it is iterative, so it is all right that I do not get everything right the first time. I change from juggler to painter. The idea is the paint the general idea I know the re-design would need and make use of the issues and strategies to guide my brush. The painting will become less and less blurry as I iterate. This painting part is adapted from Conceptual View of the Four-View model.
A possible next step is to try to divide the system into layers and group related components into them. This helps seeing the re-design from another perspective. This is important, because one perspective cannot hold all the information.
Another step can be the mapping from the abtract to the concrete, in the form of source files. The knowledge you have acquired in the previous two views can help, and the information in this view can help the other views. Remember that the views are not meant to stand absolutely on their own.
I know that the Four-View model was developed for software, and not for web sites. Still, it is what I am familiar with, and perhaps it can be adapted for you. If you are interested, you can look on Google for lecture notes on it. There is a textbook on it, but I would not suggest you to buy it. There is another architecture model called the 4+1 from Kruchten. The paper is available online I believe.
Zelnox
The Roe store seems like it is the most ripe for the repositioning of the network. You could try to extend its functionality to sell books based on the content at hand. It would be pretty cool if people could vote for the their books. Then those would receive greater advertising time. However abuse is a huge problem.
I know we all hate it (friggin Newspapers) but some kind of registration would really help you track the site's users. I am thinking something as simple as an email address. Any thoughts?
dru (http://www.drusellers.com)
from your post it sounded like you were further along in the proccess than you are, which voids my pithy suggestion. i suppose i can play around with some logo ideas.
eris
well okay, i can offer an idea building off the existing whitespace variation a bit, here. :)
eris
Who said a great monolithic structure was a good thing?
Who said subsites of a site should look the same?
I like difference, I like separation, I like non-monolithic structure. I see no reason for a corporate identity or an all-consuming brand. There are many "professional-looking" sites these days, it's become a stereotype, they're behind the times while thinking of themselves as cutting edge.
Can't a person's style be present in very different and separate looks without need of force-fit logos? That said, your favicon sucks. Have you thought of having the ultimate favicon for your site? Just white space. Absence, in other words. 16 by 16 pixels of white. People might notice, eventually. You'd pay good money for that idea, you can have it for free.
Joel (http://biroco.com/)
I would just like to add that the 9-box logo idea looks like the logo for a cement company with ideas above its station.
Joel (http://biroco.com/)
Joel -
You should reference the 7th reply for this post, where I link a post talking about how Yahoo is successfully implementing the very exact thing you're bringing up here.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshw)
As far as searching across sites goes, that's pretty easy. If you are running the sites off of a MySQL database, then it's *really* easy. You can set up a user called search in the mysql database that only have Select rights. Give "search" a password, and then make a master query script on one of the sites. That script goes, connects to all the databases, returns results appropriately. Have all the search forms point to that main script - bam, done. No problem. You could even have the script be "intelligent" and use the layout from whichever site the visitor came from either via http_referrer, or via a hidden form field.
Wouldn't that be fun? :D
Jeff Minard (http://www.creatimation.net/)
Mark -- I dunno about Yahoo, seems to me they haven't gone very far with the idea of non-monolithic structure, seems very halfway house to me, wanting to make things separate yet still wanting to tie it to the apron strings of some perceived entity, so it doesn't seem as free to be itself as it might be within its individual sections, although it's certainly looser than some who have straitjacketed themselves into a corporate death-cell of design.
I am talking about what it is that makes *very* different sites look part of the same thing, and allows each to be free and loose, while also keeping it close and intact. Yahoo seems to me a fairly stiff attempt at that.
This time next year everyone will be talking about how great non-monolithic structure is. I'll be yawning then I expect.
Joel (http://biroco.com/)
except of course that the sites aren't running from mysql, they're running mt. I don't think they're even all on the same server.
JC (http://http;//www.thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Well the backend for all of them is running MySql, but they are on two separate servers...soon to be three.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
I recommend Atomz for site-search. It can be used over more than one domain (entry-point). The search results page is very customisable and can be made to validate (although it seems to be beyond Zeldman). And you don't get the search stupidities you see on MT blogs, where if you search for "zen" you get dozen, citizen, denizen etc.
Joel (http://biroco.com/)
Isn't Atomz only limited to 500 pages? I am definitely over 500 pages across the whole network.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Yes, Atomz is limited to 500 pages for free. I don't know how much they charge over that, might still be worth considering on a paid basis.
Joel (http://biroco.com/)
joel -
After 500, they begin extracting organs from your body.The price jump is fairly dramatic.
Scrivs - I thought MT just built HTML files and didn't store the data in a sql database. I guess I've never really looked at how it works because I hate mucking around with perl, even a little.
JC (http://http;//www.thelionsweb.com/weblog)
It builds static files, but all the info is stored in a database so when you change it, MT can rebuild it.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Yes, you can access mysql databases from other servers.
IE, you can insert something other than "localhost" into the connection. If there were a properly configured user, you could allow people to directly connect to your mysql server from anywhere.
mysql_connect("9rules.com","user","pass")
mysql_query("SELECT Awesomeness FROM YouTables");
Jeff Minard (http://www.creatimation.net/)
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#1
Aside from the actual layout one way to tighten the brand is to come up with a 9rules logo/type treatment to be used on all the sites. Right now there doesn't appear to be anything. That would be the first thing I'd do, then approach the layouts.
Brian (http://www.litzdesigns.com)