November 30, 2004 | View Comments (101) | Category: Our Thoughts
Summary: Is it stealing if you create your own CSS file?
Web piracy.
Some of us have experienced it, many of us have not. I always thought that my designs would be free of such things because there are plenty of other sites out there that should be stolen (okay no site SHOULD be stolen). In any case, the world of CSS allows for someone to quickly and effectively take your design, make a few adjustments, and pass it off as their own.
However, what do you do if that person simply looked at your site and created their own CSS and images, but the end result still resembled a good number of your sites? Is it still piracy if they put their own work into it? Zach doesn't think so. What do you think?
Note: Zach was contacted a couple of weeks ago when the site looked like Big Money Tips and he told me that all the CSS and images were his own so he didn't see it as copying. He asked me if I would give him some time to change some things around and I have given him a loooong time to do so. So he decided to change the color scheme.
Not trying to attack you Zach, but I tried communication in private and now I just would like to hear what others think in case I am missing your point.
Interesting Note: I found his site via CSS Vault submission. Go figure.
Trackback URL: http://9rules.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-tb.cgi/371
It's impossible to overlook the similarities, and I won't doubt for a moment that he grabbed his design from you.
But it triggers a related issue: someone, anyone could easily come up with a nearly identical design by her or his own means.
With the weblog format being so very tried and true by now, there are only so many ways one can think of to present those common weblog elements on a rectangular screen - particularly with regard for accessibility, useability, and so forth. It's inevitable that we'll see the same layout and navigational elements recurring based on a convergence of logical design principles and current fashions.
Your design for Big Money Tips is attractive, clean, and moderately compelling - though by no means is it revolutionary or summarily unusual, in my opinion.
j
I think it's definitely stealing. Even if the copier's code is garbage, if the end result looks curiously close to the original, I think that should raise a few eyebrows.
To be fair, I look at other sites and borrow design ideas, especially if its in a new industry where I don't have experience. However, I spend a great deal of time making it my own. Usually the needs of the client make the problem work itself out, because they tend to have specific requirement that end up distancing your design anyway.
Paul Larson (http://www.creativearc.com/blog)
True enough the designs aren't innovative but I never saw them on another site before so I would like to think if I can come up with them then someone else could at least take them and tweak them enough so that they fit their own style.
Scrivs (http://9rules.com/)
I dunno, his design does look curiously similiar but, it's different enough IMHO that it isn't stealing.
Usually when you a see a 'stolen site' it looks identical, just the content text has been changed to fit it's new use. This site is using a different 'highlight' color, different link hover style, different footer, different style for posts (i.e. the location of Comments,' 'Posted At,' etc), and the logo is only loosely similiar (how many logos have a two word name seperated by 2 colors?).
After all this the only thing that really stands out is that it's 'similiar' in overall shape/size (which is pretty much the stndard shape/size for probably 75% of blogs), the navigation buttons, and the white bg with 'fadeys' on the edge. None of these are things you can say are really all that original.
I guess the biggest factor is, if I had randomly seen both of these sites I would have thought "hmm, these look similiar," not "hmm, these look the same."
Jesse J. Anderson (http://www.echofaith.com/j)
Well, I would definitely give someone who took the time and effort to create their own CSS and images a bit more leeway if it were my site they were ripping off. It sounds like you've done that, Paul.
Bottom line, I think, is that it has to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. This site is clearly a rip. It's damn near identical. But, Big Money Tips doesn't include many distinctive images, and therefore the layout and type are the only things that really set it apart visually form any other site. Now, let's say someone took Shaun Inman's layout, but wrote their own CSS and redid all his image in their own, completly different style. All of the sudden you've have a site that didn't look terribly similar, as Inman makes much heavier use of images -- and they are essential to his style.
It's tough. There are only so many tried-and-true layouts. There are only a handful of reliable web fonts. Chances are, if someone creates a two column layout, uses Georgia, and uses a basic white/grey/back/red color scheme, it's going to look a lot like other sites that use the same formula. There's such a fine line.
This site clearly crosses the line, but I think any other have to be judged case-by-case.
Jeff Croft (http://jeffcroft.com)
Oh, just re-read your post and saw that you said he just changed his color scheme recently. I still stand by what I said though, in the 'current state' I think it's fine.
Here's an appropriate quote:
"Good artists copy, great artist steal" - Pablo Picasso
Jesse J. Anderson (http://www.echofaith.com/j)
I think it all depends on the mindset. Did they see the design previously? If so, I say you have to make it decidedly different, which of course is relative.
It is possible however for people to have the same type of outcome without ever knowing about it. Case in point, the typography and color of the title on my company site, which has been relatively the same for several years now, looks a lot like Business Logs type treatment. It's from the Myriad family and the colors are close, and a year or so ago it was on the same line like BL. Did you guys steal it? No, I doubt you have ever seen it. But it does show two people can come up with something basically the same.
Brad Daily (http://bradleyboy.com/blog)
In my opinion there is resemblance. When a site resembles another, you may see the designers original source of inspiration shining through. I see it a lot, I do it a lot. I take something that inspires me; be it nature, a car, a computer, or another website and run with it.
However, where resemblance ends, replication begins. Whether he created his own CSS and HTML is not of importance; it's still theft. Maybe not code theft, but design theft.
Plenty of us can look at a site, never look at the code and create the same thing in a matter of minutes. Yet there is a certain set ethics you must follow. And I don't ever remember theft being ethical in any situation I've ever been exposed to.
Ryan Latham (http://www.unmatchedstyle.com)
<rant>
Ah, the selfishness. Who cares that some guy has a design that looks a little like your site? The colours are different, the drop shadows are different, the dimensions are different. The positioning of elements and font usage are similar. Never mind it's also similar to about another 1,000,000 blog sites. I don't think anybody is confused that his site is your site. There's no polish and no originality.
Have you ever taken any inspiration from anybody? ever? Verdana and Georgia with right nav on the side. Why, big money tips looks like SvN! Scrivs: time to redesign.
</rant>
Jonathan Snook (http:///jonathan/)
From Scriv's Law 1 -
"...there isn't much innovation you can do with 2 sections [on blogs]..."
There's no doubt that, in my mind, this site was heavily influenced by yours - that's made apparent by the whitespace / emptysnow name imagery simularity.
However, is it fair to say he "stole" your design?
I mean a font change and removal of the shadows and his layout (header, left content, right sidebar, footer) is the same as countless other blogs.
For an example of what I would classify as a apparent design rip Take a look at these sites -
These sites are so amazingly similiar, I wonder if the networks all got together and decided on a template by the same firm.
There are some out there (not me) which state one of the sites you're associated with is an obvious play off a template provided by another company. Honestly, it does bear some remarkable resemblences.
Would that site qualify as being stolen under the terms as you outline here, just heavily influenced by, or just another example of Scriv's Law?
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Paul I think this is probably a case of attempted flattery more then anything else. The kid wants into the vault so he makes a page that looks like something you made in an effort to please you. In all likely hood thinking "if I make it look like his own sites how can he NOT like it and include it".
Despite that, a larger issue still exists here:
This site is (and the others in the network are) very BASIC in it's design. That is to say, it has a similar layout / structure, basic color scheme, etc. as many other sites that may even pre-exist it. There are not many graphics period let alone instantly distinguishable pieces of artwork (aside from the logos). The content of Pauls sites tell me they are his not their design (as opposed to lets say a site like Mezoblue where the design speaks as loud as the content...often louder these days).
The real question here, and I don't claim to have the answer, is:
At what point can a basic, easily repeatable by coincidence design be a copy?
I suspect the answer is rooted back in the design itself and the solution is to use more distinguishable "ownable" design elements.
Paul, I would let it go for now. The way I see it one of two things will likely happen. The kid looses interest and the site goes nowhere or he learns more about what design is and gains the respect of designing his own site at which point that design will get tossed.
Brian
Brian
Well from a legal standpoint, it's very difficult to prove that your look and feel was emulated/copied/stolen by another individual or company. The lawmakers in this country have little knowledge of design, so saying "see this character pair right here, see the kerning .... they have the same kerning!" doesn't really mean anything.
On a related note, check out the legal discussion about website look and feel at Gigalaw. But as for my opinion, it looks exactly like your site. And as for submitting to CSS Vault, that just makes me laugh a little inside ;)
Mike (http://phark.typepad.com)
This is kind of a tough one. A comparison to trademark/copyright law yields a bit of clarity, but not a conclusion:
Let's say you have a software product and you want to name it "Word Processor". Now let's say another company has a product and they want to name it "Write Magic". The first name would not be trademarkable because it is deemed to be more descriptive than distinctive. In other words, it is merely describing the product and therefore the name has no trademarkable significance.
So, how does this relate to Whitespace? Well, the question is, have enough *distinctive* elements been lifted for it to qualify as theft? Whitespace intentionally makes use of a very minimalist design style. In other words, there really aren't very many elements to it. Although this is intentional, it also decreases the amount of things one could steal. Let's look at all of them:
So unfortunately what I think we have here is a case where all sorts of "pretty standard" things were modeled from your site, but nothing trademarkable or copyrightable was lifted. If you combine all of these standard things, the appearance of theft emerges, but it just doesn't seem actionable to me. In WhiteSpace, you've successfully created a design which eliminates all extraneous elements and presents only what is essential for information consumption. A side effect of this, however, is that you haven't left yourself much trademarkable/copyrightable material beside the logo and the content itself.
This is not a knock on WhiteSpace whatsoever... you could actually consider it proof that your design objectives were achieved.
Mike D. (http://www.mikeindustries.com)
I think design piracy is a very fine, subjective line. I've heard some people accuse others (like... me) of piracy just because of a vague resemblance. I'm talking one little thing looking similar to something else (not the same, similar) while the overall "feel" of the sites were very different. Apparently to that person, the slight similarity was enough to constitute a design theft. Unbelievable.
But, we're talking about the opposite here. The designs are very similar. I don't think it matters much whether the CSS was changed (recreated) or not. I'm sure there are people who feel differently than I do; but as a designer, I don't care if someone took my CSS file or not - if they stole my design, they stole the design.
If I were to stumble across this site, I'd immediately think it's another site in the 9rules network. Until I found out it was not, It'd have the same credibility that the rest of the sites in the network have. If I never was to find out that the site was not a part of the network, it's possible that the things written there could reflect badly on the rest of the sites in the network.
Anyway, design theft is a very touch subject, and as others have said, needs to be treated on a case by case basis.
Ryan Brill (http://www.ryanbrill.com/)
However, what do you do if that person simply looked at your site and created their own CSS and images, but the end result still resembled a good number of your sites?
Come'on!
I am a fan of "minimal" sites, but let's be realistic here. With a "massive" collection of something like 4-7 fonts, font choice becomes limited. I happen to use Georgia and Verdana as well - so fonts are out as a "ooo, you stole that!"
The rest of the design? Similiar, yes. But it's minimal. So are most of your sites. This is a personal trademark of yours - cool. But if you expect to come down on any person out there who comes up with a simple monotone (gray, white, and color) scheme, you've got a lot more posting and hunting to do cause those bastards are *all* over the net copying this whole "header, 2 columns, footer - monotone" thing.
Your designs are very, very simple - basic css, very little use of color and images. Personally, that's the way I like it - but my point is, that in general if someone "copied" this site in theme, I don't think you can chastise them - this is what a simple, beginner CSS site looks like! (css for box graphics, colors, a few fonts, etc.) Nothing so complex is going on here that it would be out of the ordinary for anyone to come up with this totally on their own.
If you want to get into copying of sites, you site has to be distinct enough to warrent it - I don't think that, aside from some graphics (like your logo/branding) there is much on this site itself that this applies to.
If someone were to say use a number of elements in the same manner as this site - I could understand. Those are unique, hand made, and used in conjunction most likely dervied from theft.
Regardless, this is a slippery subject - and itself very, very subjective at this point. In this particular case, I would side in favor of "not guilty" and get on with life. Besides that, it's rarely design that will keep me coming back.
Jeff Minard (http://www.creatimation.net/)
I think the only thing that makes his website look like it's been copied is the menu bar. The rest is just plain typical, if it weren't for that menu bar you could classify that website as a minimal design and being original on a minimal design is really dificult nowadays. This doesn't mean that you can copy, it means that whatever you do, someone has probably done it before.
And as someone mentioned before, imitation is the best form of flattery.
Hermann (http://www.theragingche.com/blog/)
Interesting topic. I ran into this about 5 months ago with my old design, which some of you may remember. There was a site called Silverberry.org that tried to get into cssbeauty.com. So Alex emailed me and let me know of a site that looked VERY similar to mine. So sure enough I head off to the site. It has since changed due to my request, and the girl was very nice about changing it, but here is a screenshot of what it looked like
Now, I don't think Paul has updated the vault with my new design yet, but you can see a small version of it Here.
Now, in my case, my design WAS somewhat unique, so I considered it copying, especially since some of the code was mine :), I think its one thing to take some "elements" of a site and use them on yours after tweaking them accordingly, but I am not all for using a design that is damn near identical to someone elses.
Its one thing if you get a movable type template or a blogger.com template as those have been pre-made with the purpose of mass bloggers, but when you take the time to apply a custom design to something, try and be a little unique.
Bryan (http://www.juicedthoughts.com)
You're so vain Scrivs. Zach was obviously ripping ShaunInman.com, not White Space.
Shaun Inman (http://www.shauninman.com/)
someone stole my entire site today. on its pre-launch launch.
'launching the site in a few days, any one find any bugs?'
'no, great code. thanks. ps im using your css&html. thanks!'
'erm, whaaaa!' . . . .
Aspinal Logan
I clicked through to Empty Snow and first thing that came into my mind was: "That's the Paul Scrivens look" - even down to the large Serif headers.
Then again... now that you're not posting regularly anymore, maybe we need some Scrivs clones to subscribe to ;-)
Richard MacManus (http://www.readwriteweb.com)
Personally, I think a rip off is not when you only copy CSS code and/or images, you can rip off an idea, and that's exactly what Zach did.
It doesn't matter if you use different tools or different material when you're still copying the idea. If I create a car company tomorrow and design a new car from scratch using my own metal, leather, plastic, but it still looks a hell lot like an Audi, wouldn't I be asking for trouble here?
People see the end result, who cares if somebody created his own gray rectangular hover button with paint brush, it's still copying.
Rami Kayyali (http://www.ramikayyali.com)
Rami -
While I agree generally with your sentiment, I think in this case you should refer back to Mike's comment above.
The elements of the "Audi" being copied here consists of 4 tires, steering wheel and horn.
Not anything actionable, nor exclusive.
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Does it look like a 9rules site? Yeah.
Can any site look like a 9rules site if you strip it of bold colors and images? Yeah.
Is this a rip? Depends.
The main factor (to me at least) in determining a rip is intent. Accidents happen. I can't tell you how many times I've started designing a layout and it ends up looking like some other site I see a few hours later. It's bound to happen, even subliminally, when you spend as much time on the internet as a web designer does. But if this guy thought "hey that Scrivs guy has a cool style, let me copy it", then that's when it can be called a rip.
Vinnie Garcia (http://blog.vinniegarcia.com/)
You think the Whitespace ripoff is bad. At least you don't have a 10 year old kid using your stuff!!! See:
http://harrykwong.301bros.com
Mike D. (http://www.mikeindustries.com)
So in the context of this discussion - for those of you who think Paul was completely ripped - would Mike's "live" header showing a local scene from his hometown with the current weather be a rip of Dunstan?
Disclaimer: I don't. Just curious to see if the fanboys here would be so quick to judge a better known name than "Zach."
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
hahhaha, All I could see in my status bar as that page loaded was http://www.mikeindustr........
just pulling information left and right...
UNLESS, you are doing that as a joke yourself
hrmmmmm
Bryan (http://www.juicedthoughts.com)
I think this is just part of using a minimalist design. I think both designs are effective, but lack enough visual elements to set them apart from each other. Whitescapce.com wasn't the first site to use this approach. And it certainly won't be the last.
Let's face it, the whitespace.com design isn't a far cry from many of the weblog templates included with many CMSs. Are we trying to say that Paul invented large headers using Georgia? Or that he was the first to use horizontal navigation using an unordered list to mimic buttons? Or that the effective use of whitespace (no pun intended) was his idea?
Is the similarity coincidental? I don't think so. Is it to be expected when using a minimalist approach? I do think so.
Travis Chillemi (http://www.1080media.com)
For a bit more reference:
In Phase IV, which is now, I am modeling my site to be abstractly like 9Rules Whitespace.
Scrivs (http://9rules.com/)
Oh man oh man. Another "copying" topic. OK, I'll bite. The magic answer is...
It depends.
The bottom line for me is if the person is making money or reputation off MY hard work. For example, if this person is say, um, an insane racist homophobe... I don't want my design on their blog as people who recognize it may equate their horrid words to me. But, if they're just using it because they're 15 and angsting about their boyfriends, um... go ahead. Just give me a link back, yo, a shoutout saying this was "inspired" by moi. Or, if it's one of my more "precious" designs, I would kindly ask them to take it down or tell them they can buy it off of me for a certain fee.
Even then, there's a thin line. It depends on how much they "borrow" and how much they integrate with their own "look" and/or code. Some people may even (gasp) improve on your previous look!
I guess I'm more ambigious ever since reading Malcom Gladwell's Something Borrowed. What's "original" anymore? Am I really offended if someone uses my design? Should I credit Paul Rand everytime I design a logo reflecting his ideologies? Should I credit Edward Tufte for every graph I make? Should Juxt Interactive have to have a tribute to David Carson everytime they create experimental typographic designs?
Of course, a line DOES exist to delineate what's blatant exploitation of your previous work vs. someone just thinking you're cool enough to emulate. It's just up to you to decide where it is.
Lea (http://xox.lealea.net/01/)
I think that its ok to 'borrow' from other sites. In fact, I, and many others learn from studying other sites, etc. But I think if you borrow someone's ideas you should have a credit somewhere on your site saying as much. The originator gets recognition, maybe even a bit more than if he wasn't 'copied', and he is honored as well.
Joel Goldstick
Reminds me of Lego's past 20 years of lawsuits. When Lego's patented block design expired (in the 80s I think) some rival toy makers stepped in and outright copied the design. But Lego has lost a number of their lawsuits against these guys because the courts determined consumers weren't confused which company was which, and that Lego couldn't claim trademark (the basis for their case) on an element of their product that was inherently functional.
So I aggree with many above: the issue is not creating new or copying exisiting css (the functionality) but the end result (the trademark design). Heck, even as a beginner designer I feel guilty with my recent redesign and its similiarities to whitespace. But man, Emtpy Snow's main navigation and side column spacing/typography is just too similar. I'd let it go, but if I were him, I'd feel a little low.
Jeff Werner (http://jeffwerner.ca)
Its not theft - 'homage' would be a more accurate term.
It is, however, incredibly bad taste.
But I would suggest you feel the compliment and roll your eyes at the judgement.
Theft is when they take something of yours. Homage is when they are inspired by you. Wearing the guru crown can be a bit heavy at times, eh?
Lea de Groot (http://elysiansystems.com/)
The joke's on Zach. Whitespace's design works because it's minimal; if it wasn't - if, say, it was exactly the same but with a superfluous shadow effect and a bit of random colouring - then it would just look dull and stupid. The difference between a Zen garden and an empty plot of land with a few rocks in it is that one of them is created as a whole, and the other is a conglomeration of bits. Zach's site is the conglomeration; dumb.
Eric TF Bat
In some ways I feel his site was a way of stealing your identity. Whenever i see a design like that, I think of Scrivs and all of his 8 million sites. Anyone who has been to one of your sites would knwo that design....so seeing it with somebody else's content was just....eerie.
It was like hearing someone else's voice come out of a friends body. Weird.
Anyway, sorry I don't have an answer to your qiestion like everyone else does.
Martha (http://blackmartha.com)
1. Oh how I long to be ripped. I'm so jealous.
2. After reading everything and thinking on it a bit more, I think this is a rip because of the name. It's not actionable, but the name gives away the intent. Clearly this person was trying to copy Whitespace. The thieved design may not be distinct enough to be actionable, but everyone agrees that it looks like Scrivs. If it looks like Scrivs, and is named like Scrivs...
3. Mark: I'll be the frst to say that when I saw that rip off artist Mike D.'s blog and that weather header, I thought "DUSTAN! He ripped Dustan! That dirty bastard!" But then I took a step back and saw that while Mike certainly appears to have been inspired by Dustan, his implementation is totally different. It's also only one idea from an entire site. If I use scalable flash headers like ESPN.com, I wouldn't say I'm ripping them -- I'm simply learning from what they did well, borrowing a single idea and then customizing it to my own use.
Mike D., though, is still a dirty bastard -- anyway you look at it. :)
Jeff Croft (http://jeffcroft.com)
Oh cool! I found a great article in the Whitespace archives. I'm gonna make it my new blog entry. But don't worry: I'll re-type it first.
david gouch (http://www.freepgs.com/individed/)
I don't see what the big deal is. So the guy likes your design and wanted to emulate you. You should be flattered and not upset. It's not like you're losing anything from it. The design isn't all the revolutionary anyway, its just... white space.. its simple, its clean and its a blog. I've seen many of these around. So I'd say, let it be, its not a big deal. You're just giving him the attention he wanted to begin with, so in the end, he wins.
Anuttymouse
"Anuttymous", suppose someone came accross Zach's site first, then discovered the 9rules Network. That might develop the thought that Paul's site is, in fact, the copy. If this person knows some more people, the rumor could spread, and maybe even ruin Paul's reputation in the web community.
In my opinion, STEALING IS STEALING. If you duplicate a preexisting site to the degree we see here, it is stealing.
Inspiration is a completely different thing. If you see an effect that you like, you can think of ways to incorporate a similar effect into your project. If it's something not-so-general, like a unique image effect that makes the original site stand out in the crowd, it qould be a much better idea to contact the owner of the original version and ask permission to use a similar effect.
Anyways, the whole point of web development is supposed to be creating something that is your own, not to use someone else's. How could one be truely satisfied with something he/she did not create?
Daniel
“Good artists copy, great artists steal” - Pablo Picasso
Good Designers Copy, Great Designers Steal
I'm always a fan of stealing great CSS code, but not when its a whole site. You gotta learn to do it yourself in order to make yourself original.
Brady White (http://www.bradywhite.net)
To me, how you feel about this question will be pretty similar to how you feel about reverse engineering--if you think reverse engineering is bad, than so is Zach's design. But if reverse engineering is OK, then his design is OK too.
There are some exceptions: Apple is apparently able to sue other companies for stealing "look and feel" (i.e. design), but by and large, this isn't so much of a "look and feel" issue as much as a reverse engineering issue. But maybe I'm wrong about that.
wink
Empty = Space, Snow = White... This is a joke right?
John Serris (http://phonophunk.phreakin.com/)
Once upon a time, not too long ago, a young up and comer designed a site which looked remarkably similiar - and borrowed heavily in terms of type design, font color, layout and idea, from a much bigger and well known site.
He paid homage to his design inspiration much like our friend Zach. But unlike Zach, who admits his design is modelled from Whitespace, this other designer merely mentions the company which inspired him so heavily as just one in a list of inspirations.
To the bigger compay's credit, they never called this guy out publically about his design direction on their blog.
The big company took the high road with this youngster regarding his site, and today he is nearly as popularly read as they.
I wonder what fate will befall our young Zach? Will he too live happily ever after?
The End.
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Mark - very funny ... great analogy :) sorry Scrivs :)
that being said, I do think it is copying even if you use your own graphics and css ... he could have done a few more things to make it different than yours ...
I can tell he wanted to go minimialist, but there's more than one way to skin a cat, there are ways to make it minimalist without mimicking ...
chuck (http://telerana.f2o.org)
Nice comparison Mark. There is much more to this story than I am revealing of course (trust in the fact that I took the ultra nice route).
In any case with comparisons to the 37Signals site did you mistake my site for their's or did you simply see the inspiration?
And I'm glad you know that the big company took the high road...
Scrivs (http://9rules.com/)
Ok Paul, to be fair - no, I don't know for sure whether they made a stink about it or not.
No, I did'nt mistake emptysnow (or whatever it's called) for your site.
And finally, if you can't (or won't for some reason) present the whole story, then why even post it in the first place?
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Come off it Scrivs, you can't claim copyright on a plain white two column layout.
Zach's site looks like a thousand and one others out there. He may well have taken inspiration from you. He may well have taken inspiration from WordPress for his logo. The Kubrick templates look a lot like that too.
At the end of the day its a simple two column layout that anybody could have made. Anybody.
Hell, even I could! My site isn't particularly dissimilar. Take away the pictures and background colour and its virtually the same!
Olly (http://thinkdrastic.net/)
Because the point of the entry wasn't what should I do, but how would you interpret things. That's why I left it as a question and so the whole world wouldn't jump on me thinking that I am mad about thigns (as some people have assumed in the comments).
I wrote it for the discussion Mark. The discussion.
Scrivs (http://9rules.com/)
Haha, see what Olly said? That is why I didn't tell the whole story. Geez. Just a question of how it should be intrepreted people.
Bad Scrivs. Bad.
Scrivs (http://9rules.com/)
Alright I've listened to about enough of this drivel. Bottom line is that this little fledgling web designer saw Whitespace, said "shit, lemme make my site look like Paul's!" and then did it.
Did he copy the CSS? Nope. Is it possible to make multiple layouts look exactly the same with completely different CSS? Uh, obviously.
I really don't understand why people in the same profession can't stand up for each other, take the correct side, and then make situations better for all parties involved. If you can't see that Empty Snow is a blatant rip of Whitespace then go jump into another industry, cause you're not helping ours.
Mike (http://phark.typepad.com)
Haha. And here I thought The Drum Report ( A site I made ) was a ripoff of your designs. I guess I was wrong.
I think stealing is okay sometimes... for example, I feel okay with my design for a few reaons:
But that kind of blatant copying... oh my. Maybe that's why I set out to create such an individual design for Warpspire. I didn't want others to be able to copy it - and to my knowledge, no one has. If they were to copy it, I believe it would be so obvious there wouldn't be any question.
The bottom line is I guess, that the internet is an open book of knowledge no matter how much copyright symbols we put on it. If you want your work to be protected, don't put it online - or have a really good lawyer.
Kyle (http://www.warpspire.com)
I won't share my opinion just yet, but take a look at these two.
The author again has the same lame excuse that because he created the CSS its not copying...
whatever.
Josh Bryant (http://www.thescenicroute.org/)
Frick. I was about to change the deisgn:
http://www.emptysnow.com/projects_tests/designs/spiroylous/
Zach Blume (http://www.emptysnow.com)
I was working out a few more colors for the test design but looks like I'll have to switch it now. My very bad.
Zach Blume (http://www.emptysnow.com)
I think it comes down to when one site is TOO similar to another. I think it's pretty obvious that Zach copied Scrivs... he pretty much admitted to it in his blog post. However, there are some instances where one designer can have a similar style to another designer and their end products look like they could be copies.
I'll be the first to admit that my own design "style" is similar to that of Ryan Sims. I don't try to copy his work, but there have been instances where I thought, "I like what he did here, I wonder if I could use that sort of element on one of my sites". I think this is the case with virtually EVERY designer out there... or else, why would "gallery" sites be so popular? The key is to not steal the work though, but be inspired by it.
Here, I'll give you an example... compare a site I designed (www.muzicality.com) to one that Ryan designed (www.purevolume.com). Now, at first glance, you might not notice the similarities, but if you inspect both designs more, you'll se some of the same design elements. Did I copy Ryan's work? No. In fact, my design came out of the work I did on a few of my other sites (www.animatedbliss.com and www.boxsetbliss.com). I simply wanted a similar "look" to connect them all together... and this was before I had ever seen the Pure Volume site.
So how did the designs end up being similar? Well, like I said, my style is similar to his and having been inspired by his work, it kind of makes sense that we both happened to land on a design that had some similar elements. Of course, I'll be the first to admit that his creation is much better than my own.
Joshua Lane (http://www.animatedbliss.com)
BTW, why didn't you contact me after I sent you the email? I didn't even know you got the email I sent you.
Zach Blume (http://www.emptysnow.com)
Since when can you copyright a simple table layout design? It's not like it's some new, fantastic, inovative design. It looks like hundreds of other blogs I've seen.
Unless you know for a fact that this guy intentionally and knowingly copied your site (which is pretty impossible, unless he confesses), you don't have a case in my opinion. Deal.
Kim
I agree with what many have said already.
Based on design alone, I wouldn't assume that emptysnow was a copy of bigmoneytips or scrivs in general. I probably wouldn't have noticed the similarities if I stumbled across it on my own.
The main distinctive design feature of whitespace is the circular logos which are (were) not in use at empty snow. The other thing that I might consider a whitespace / scrivs exclusive is the bar of color or ads at the top of the page that isn't quite a masthead. Empty snow also didn't have that.
I assume it wasn't a code copy since the question specifically asked about writing your own code to produce an existing effect.
To answer the question... is it still piracy if you put your own work into it... eh.. yes but it's not the same level of piracy as a direct copy.
If I take a popular song and arrange it for my band by ear with the addition of some new solos and key changes... yes it's piracy... but not as bad as if I took the recording of the original song and stuck it on our album as is. I'm more inclined to see it as homage than theft, especially if no money is made from it.
sunshine lewis (http://sparklit.sparkalyn.com)
First, let's credit Zach with changing his site (see above).
Second, think about the effect of Blogger, etc. allowing people (myself included) to freely change templates. Sets an example for non-designers who don't know better.
Third, being too protective could bite us back. What if whoever came up with the first two column blog with new content at the top copyrighted (or patented) it. Blogs might not have exploded as a category.
So, it seems, first of all, that Zach has a conscience and has graciously accepted the majority opinion. Doesn't change the fact that designs are much harder to copyright and protect than photographs and illustrations. We can add copyright protection to designs, but actually proving copyright violations is much harder.
Marilyn Langfeld (http://www.langfeldesigns.com)
The popular "I hate Zach entry"(http://9rules.com/whitespace/our_thoughts/the_real_web.php)
Zach Blume (http://www.emptysnow.com)
Hang in their Zach. Whilst I find the name "Empty Snow" quite unimpressive and very bland, I feel that you have been slated here a bit too much. Please understand that whilst I did first think of Big Money Tips when viewing your redesign, I do not think you should be put down so heavily.
As many intelects have pointed out, Mr. Scrivens cannot start claiming ownership to a layout that is as creative as a flour in bread. I would understand if graphics were copied or the graphic theme stolen, however in this case, you are being blamed for simply not having anything personalised on your site.
You admitted your source of inspiration in your unedited original article and I did notice that the markup was that of your own. Maybe, if you have thoughtt of the repercussions more clearly, you would have considered the redesign at a bigger length but maybe you did not feel your "blog" would be noticed amongst the "top-guns".
Whilst Scrivs talks of the direction of this article being a mere discussion, he does not present the case evenly. Many people are also responding in his favour out of sheer loyalty. You side is strong and maybe the colour change did not cut it, you did however experiment with the design. I think Scrivs has not talked about the communication between you two designers and if what you say is true, that Mr. Scrivens did not reply to you reply then his launch of this entry simply is not fair. I think this is blown out of proportion and it almost seems that he is trying to cut short your life as an online publisher. As I am sure he is not, I hope you take this all on board and start to understand ownership and permissions. The site point article gets carried away a bit and some may interpret the title as an excuse to steal an idea/inspiration/theme without a thought.
I believe whilst you are still young, you can build on this. You have already shown great respect by coming out, changing your design and not going underground out of fear. Zach Blume will be remembered and whip up some damn good sites so we can remember you with some flare.
Oh and Scrivs, lay off him, it's not like he is making proffit from his site. Hell as he is learning, he would most likely want his personal touch to a site and start changing it in many ways.
David Brent
You know, at the very least, it is extremely entertaining and fun to compare the thread occuring here with the current thread at Scrivs' other property, BusinessLogs, concerning Kottke's run-in w/Sony.
Apparently posting something of someone else's creation where the copyrightability is doubtful - vs - posting something of someone else's creation where there is no doubt to the ownership.
In both cases, it's the other guy whose wrong.
It's truly thick in its irony.
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
I, too, tend to make designs like Ryan Sims. Look at my blog (blog.gra-phix.com).
In all reality, if you consider my next hexfuse redesign (www.hexfuse.com/winston/) as a copy of a newly redesigned site (If you can guess who, it's probably too close....I just love the idea for the side background) then sure, I guess creating your own code and images without even trying to make a similar overall design is piracy.
I tend to think that using certain elements that someone has come up with is something we do now — appropriation. We're somewhat limited on the web so it's kind of hard to be completely original without going way out into flash field. I think Cameron Moll or Greg made an entry about this about two months ago.
Joe Clay (http://www.gra-phix.com/)
Zach,
I don't agree with you stealing,borrowing,being inspired by, or whatever whoever wants to call it.
There are a few CC licensed designs out there to steal from that even allow Commercial use. Try them out.
Scrivs,
I also pointed this site out to you. I think you have spent more time fighting miniwars in cyberspace the last few weeks than building those beautiful sites I want to buy my Christmas presents from. If you don't get your Amazon sites back up I can't buy from ya man. Quit fighting these firefights and get back to work. Cuz I love it when you post and open up your stores for business.
The rest of you,
Shame on you.
Me,
Shame on you for visiting Zach's site more in the last few days than Scrivs.
Oh --its cuz he updates his site.
Peace out. Love all you guys.
David Krug
Well it seems like we all can go home now. Zach changed his site.. err.. ripped David Hellsing's Stylegala this time around. It's a piss-poor job, if I may add.
Zach, there are plenty of free resources that require the same copy-n-paste that you're using. Many of which are found on the sites that you're copying the css from.
Fernando Dunn II (http://www.fdiidesign.com/)
Wow, that does resemble stylegala.com a little more.
Didn't someone make a joke way up above about, "its not like Zach copied a site like stylegala or anything, I mean, he copied Scrivs which is the basic two column website..."
Then I just saw Fernando's comment and had to do a double take and was like, "Yea, that does resemble Stylegala".
Oh well, not my fight.
Bryan (http://www.juicedthoughts.com)
No no no, I'm looking at what it might look like. I'm not ripping anyone else's site off again
Zach Blume (http://www.emptysnow.com)
Zach: The truth is obvious. For the sake of your own integrity, you should just give it up.
Your current design is clearly the same 3-column, 1024 version that Stylegala has. Even if you didn't blatently steal the css (which you obviously did), the design is still the same.
The web is wide, but it's not that big. At some point, someone will acknowledge when something is ripped. If you're going to use someone else's hard work as if it's a template, you could at least ask permission.
Fernando Dunn II (http://www.fdiidesign.com/)
I'm not keeping this design. I'm going through ideas for what it would look like.
Zach Blume (http://www.emptysnow.com)
So if you like the "empty" look so much. Why don't you lose all background colouring on the new design? I'm sure then it wont look like a rip.
Oh and give him some credit, he can change a style sheet as quickly as a gun shot...
David
So if you like the "empty" look so much. Why don't you lose all background colouring on the new design? I'm sure then it wont look like a rip.
Oh and give him some credit, he can change a style sheet as quickly as a gun shot...
David
So if you like the "empty" look so much. Why don't you lose all background colouring on the new design? I'm sure then it wont look like a rip.
Oh and give him some credit, he can change a style sheet as quickly as a gun shot...
David
Crap, I hate missing all the good discussions. I used to check this site for updates daily, but don't for obivious reasons anymore.
Scrivs: I found your blog and started reading it because it used to focus on topics of design, something I was just really starting to get into in a business sense. I find it fasinating to watch the discussions you prevoke over designs and watch some jab at you for being successful, but lately you have been throwing more and it seems your blogs are a place for you to do so. I predict that like many, I will soon remove your blog from my favorites list (don't use a reader) because what originally drew me to it is no longer here (discussions about designs, how to make money on the web, and just being able to get the information up front and easily). Don't loose track man and go back to what made you successful in the first place, it works better for you.
Zach: Don't know how long you been at the web business, or how old you are, but one thing is for sure, you at least have the passion to attempt to get to the top. Now that you have become known within this community (I haven't and don't care if I ever do, popularity stop being important to me when I got married and had 5 kids), you should really consider very carefully every design you ever build. If it looks close to someone elses work, "you stole it" because you have set yourself up for it and your latest creation is proof. Preception is Reality is a little saying that I am I forced to live by in my profession (public service) and it isn't your preception that counts.
wes
Empty = Space, Snow = White... This is a joke right?
You people are thinking way to hard. I didn't name it Empty Snow because I'm a phycotic nutcase who likes stealing other people's work and then naming my "new" work the same as the old one in riddles. You have got to be kidding me. I could compare ridiculusly seperate ideas by using synonyms and come up with the same name, too.
Zach Blume (http://www.emptysnow.com)
Really, I've just read all of the comments. You people really do think I'm a physcotic nutcase out for riddled revenge for no reason. Yeesh.
Zach Blume (http://www.emptysnow.com)
You are kidding, right?
Are you trying to assert intellectual property rights on a two column blog format which uses Georgia for headings, verdana for body text, an low-saturation grey and blue color scheme and no decoration outside the logo?
Unless you viewed his CSS and it was yours, I think the basis of this post is somewhat suspect, this site looks pretty much like a gazillion others out there.
You can claim rights on the design of the logo which is a distinctive mark of the 9rules empire.
Terrence Wood (http://funkive.com)
Guess I should write another entry so ignorant comments like this are no longer made.
Scrivs (http://9rules.com/)
I second the motion for a new entry.
Oh, and sorry to read of your loss -- seriously.
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Guess I should write another entry so ignorant comments like this are no longer made.
I would have to go with that. I don't want people judging things quickly and without good reason.
Zach Blume (http://www.emptysnow.com)
Guess I should write another entry so ignorant comments like this are no longer made.
Love the irony.
I am somewhat bemused as to why you think my previous comment is ignorant. Care to expand on that?
Read #2, #4, and #6 again, which I think gives a pretty good perspective on the situation.
Terrence Wood (http://funkive.com)
*sigh*
Alright, for one a lot of people are mistakenly thinking that I was saying Empty Snow looks like Whitespace, when in fact I was trying to say it looked more like 9rules and Big Money Tips. And when I say "like" I mean exactly identical with the exception of colors.
Secondly, I never mentioned anything about copywriting two column layouts or anything like that. I asked the question about if someone says they made the CSS themself is it still copying? That was the point of the entry. But since I am the big bully around here I guess in someway I made it sound like I was bullying poor Zach around and that nobody deserves such treatment.
So when 2 sites look identical and I mean identical, then yes I have to question some things.
Are you trying to assert intellectual property rights on a two column blog format which uses Georgia for headings, verdana for body text, an low-saturation grey and blue color scheme and no decoration outside the logo?
That is where I see ignorance in the comment because that has nothing to do with the entry, but whatever.
Scrivs (http://9rules.com/)
For example, if I posted this site and said it looked like Forever Geek I have a feeling people might jump on me for saying that I am still trying to control 2 column layouts and the color gray now.
Scrivs (http://9rules.com/)
First - "A lot people" probably mistakenly think you meant Zach ripped off Whitespace because you don't specifically mention the site(s) you allege he stole, and there is no record of his site you refer to because he has changed his design.
Second - You didn't ask if it is OK to copy. You asked if is it OK to pass off work as your own that looks like someone elses. Perhaps you don't use the word stole yourself but you do use the word "piracy" more than once, which is, well, the same thing really... and the definition of piracy mentions copyright specifically.
You state, plain and simple, that he has stolen something you own.
My point is this: if it wasn't your CSS he used, but it looks like a two column blog that you would make, what exactly is it that he has pirated from you?
You imply that he has stolen your design - not in tangible sense (i.e. your css), but your look and feel (i.e your intellectual property).
So you see, your post has everything to do with intellectual property rights.
And in response to your question (paraphrased: "Is it OK for Zach to use my trademark blog look 'n' feel, even though it's his own css?") I asked you what are claiming as your property that Zach has pirated?
Nothing ignorant in that, * sigh * and you still haven't answered the question really.
Interesting observation you make about bullying Zach, I share that opinion.
Terrence Wood (http://funkive.com)
whoops... my mistake... you do answer that question:
"So when 2 sites look identical [9rules vs. Zachs] and I mean identical, then yes I have to question some things"
right, OK, I get it, he's pirated your two column layout.
Terrence Wood (http://funkive.com)
Well this is really interesting in the way people react to social standing. Scrivis is getting picked on because...well, is good at what he does and people resent that, and is well know. People are picking on me because...no one knows me. I'm not saying everyones picking on each other, but some people are. Just a thought.
Zach Blume (http://www.emptysnow.com)
Zach, possibly the problem might be with what you do, not what you are. I'm not familiar with much of the 9rules network, so I chose not to comment on that aspect.
But.. the thing that made me speak was the fact that I go to your site to see what you "changed" and it is clear that you copied the layout from Stylegala's CSS file. Of course you've changed some of the CSS now, but you had a three-column, 1024px layout with no content in the middle section upon launching, and you want us to be so gullible into thinking you hand-coded that?
It is even worse when you reply to my comments stating that nothing was lifted "this time":
No no no, I'm looking at what it might look like. I'm not ripping anyone else's site off again......I'm not keeping this design. I'm going through ideas for what it would look like...
...See now?
I don't think this post was about the exact look of the site. I think he was asking is it [ethically] alright to copy someone's CSS file and just change the colors and etc to your liking. I have to say, no. To me it doesn't matter how simple the design is or how many columns there are.
Fernando Dunn II (http://www.fdiidesign.com/)
Actually he was asking to the opposite:
Summary: Is it stealing if you create your own CSS file?
...what do you do if that person simply looked at your site and created their own CSS and images, but the end result still resembled a good number of your sites?
Terrence Wood (http://funkive.com)
Please Zach, can I see the stylegala rip? Seems like I missed out on the juicy parts...
David / stylegala (http://www.stylegala.com)
Ummm..huh? If your refering to current design I'm confused...
Zach Blume (http://www.emptysnow.com)
Finally, I must say this. No matter what you do, when you take something, the original idea still belongs to them. You can take chunks out, do additions and modifications; but even after all is said and done it is still based on what it was to begin with. This applies to everything.
If I go out and buy an Escalade, and put 22 inch rims on it, is it no longer an Escalade? Yes, yes it is. It still remains the same as it was, with a minor modification to the original product.
However, here is the tricky part. If someone were to build a vehicle in their own garage, that was a replica of an Escalade, is it an Escalade? No, no it's not. However, the original idea still belongs to its creators. And anyone who took a heavy amount of inspiration from any source should be accredited.
You can't reinvent the wheel. But you can modify the hell out of it. But even once you're done modifying it, doesn't mean that you created it.
Ryan Latham (http://www.unmatchedstyle.com)
Ryan -
Have you ever seen Photoshop Tennis by Coudal Partners?
In case not, they start w/an image and then the participants volley back and forth manipulating and building off the previous manipulation of the image until it resembles nothing of the orginal.
Sure, it is still based on the original, but I doubt very seriously that the originator could cry foul at that point - because it is now a completely new entity.
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Keith or Douglas (or someone) posted some time ago on an idea similiar. Essentially going through an exercise of manipulating an image and then asking at which step in the manipulation was it no longer a rip of the original. It was pretty interesting -- perhaps someone knows where this was done and can point to it.
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Mark, that was on Mezzoblue. That permalink is here:
http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2004/07/26/design_theft/
Fernando Dunn II (http://www.fdiidesign.com/)
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#1
Okay, at first I thought no. But look at his site! I mean it looks like you've created it! That is stealing and it's copying, because the result looks like the original. Doesn't matter if he created his own CSS and images.
Julian (http://www.julian-bez.de/blog/)