June 03, 2004 | View Comments (41) | Category: Web Business
Summary: Determing how much to charge also involves determining your skillset.
From freelancers to design agencies a large problem for anyone is determining the price that you should set for a project. I wrote two entries that delve deeper into how one could go about determining their own price. However, much of this was based on how much you would like to make. But how do you determine if you skill level matches the price?You could wax poetic on how it is all about supply and demand. You should charge as much as the client is willing to pay. But lets pretend we have some ethics here and go about determining the skills we possess and how we can justify charging $50, $100, $200 per hour. In his entry, Keith used a imaginary number (*wink*) of $100/hr. I am sure many people went away with huge eyese thinking to themselves that they could charge that much. Sure you could, if your skillset matches that number.
I would think that the basics would involve being able to code XHTML. That is what everyone can do and some people equate designing/building/developing a website to just being that.
Of course this skill comes easily to anyone that has been doing webpages for some time so we probably wouldn't even pay someone $2 to do that. However, it is a skill that not everyone possesses and to some is not easily attained and therefore deserves more than McDonald's salary..
If all you are at is level I then you really are nothing but a template designer. Let's add some skills to level II.
Usability. If you have read Nielsen for more than 5 seconds you understand that many of the principles that he teaches are common sense. I could add common sense as a skill, but lets assume you were born with that naturally. In that case lets add usability design as part of the skillset.
CSS. I think I might put CSS under level II as well and we all know that a properly coded CSS site itself brings a number of huge benefits. This alone helps to widen the gap between level I and level II.
Information Architecture Many times this is what can separate the men from the boys (or women from girls). Without proper knowledge of IA you are still a glorified template designer. Understanding how users will move throughout the system is just as crucial to how the site looks. Sure your site may work best with two columns, but not understanding why it would work best with two columns or even exploring other options is what keeps many designers I think from achieving really great websites.
For example, on the upcoming Business Logs site we went with a two column, blog layout (not to exciting huh?) for two reasons. 1) We are promoting the use of blogs in all industries so it would be kind of weird if we didn't use a blog ourselves to show their benefits. 2) Many of our visitors will be coming to us through search pages and they will be hitting subpages of our site and not the homepage. The two column layout allows them to quickly dive in and discover what we are about.
Search Engine Optimization This might even go up to another level, but let's put it here. Not too many of your clients will care less where they rank in the search engines. Everyone wants to be at the top. If you know how to get them there and keep them there consistently, then that is a valuable skill to have.
Design Vision Being able to put all the levels together in a design that grabs the person's attention without getting in the way is a skill that could be placed anywhere. I put it at Level IV because many times if you can't get the first 3 levels right, even a great looking design will not save the site.
Of course there are many more skills that could be added, but I tried to avoid writing a novel. For example, you could add brand development, copywriting, and a couple of others to your list. The point is, as designers we sometimes forget all the different skills that are required to make a successful site. If you are a level IV type person and think your skills are only worth $10/hr then so be it.
There is no mathematical way to show how much you are worth. Usually the market (yes, back to economics) can help you determine your worth just as much as the market sets the prices for other products and services. Designers should also keep in mind though that their market does not include everyone. Some people only wish to hire designers off of elance.com and sites like that. Other are more knowledgable and understand some of the details required to make a successful site.
Write down your skills and rate yourself honestly on how strong you are in each category. It seems arbitrary to just place a $ value on how much each skill is worth, but sometimes that is what is to be done. If no one is willing to pay your $130/hr for you skillset then obviously that is not the right price. Just remember though that you are charging for more than just coding some XHTML pages. At times it just requires a bit of an ego to say that your skillset should command $X/hr.
Oh and the whole level I-IV thing was just used by me to show how skillsets differentiate from designer to designer. Take it for what its worth.
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I think a key element is which hardly gets dicussed is industry experience and strength - which should be placed somewhere between levels 3 & 4 of your example.
It all gets back to marketing strategy. Creating a website design / IA structure / usability focus is a different process of understanding across each industry.
To say you're a web designer doesn't work anymore. On the other hand, to say you're a designer with great experience and recommendations in "X" industry(ies) is what's going to get you in the door - especially if you're trying to get a gig in that particular industry or a complimentary one.
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Level 1: That's no problem, i've been coding HTML/XHTML for a long time now.
Level 2: Again, no problem. I studied human computer interface and usability on my computer science course. I have also been studying CSS in depth for a number of years.
Level 3: I'm familiar with IA and SEO, mostly due to courses i've been on - the rest due to learning in my own time.
Level 4: I have done Art courses, and i'm trying my best to become proficient in Photoshop/Illustrator - as well as truly understanding colour theory and typography.
I currently charge �30 p/h - which is about $55 - $60 p/h. I don't usually charge by the hour though, so it's hard to say.
Keith has been doing "commercial" web site development for far longer than I have, so i'd expect him to charge more than me - which he does.
Robert Lofthouse
That should say: 30 british pounds p/h. For some reason your comments won't allow the pound sign.
Robert Lofthouse
I'm going to buy my way all the way to Level eleventy billion with loans from all my rich friends and false promises to the American people. My add campaign could be: "Steady design in times of change.
Sorry for that, I get odd when I've been deprived of sleep, but nevertheless an interesting read. However, to someone such as myself it still leaves you wondering what level you are at.
I would like to think that I have a grasp on everything which you covered in this post, however I know there are levels within the levels. You can be a level 3, and still not completely mastered IA, and that's where it gets confusing for me.
If I have a good grasp on something, but haven't begun to, for a lack of a better term, "master" it, am I still in that level?
Ryan (http://www.worldoneweb.com)
At my day job we have a similar way of differentiating between skill levels. A problem comes when you have someone who was in a related skill at a level 4 (for example) that move to a new skillset.
Do you demote them? Pay them less? Or do you leave them at a level 4 because they can easily learn CSS, XHTML, IA, and SEO (if applicable). From a corporate perspective, it becomes hard to answer these questions.
I know you were talking primarily from a consultant perspective Paul, but I thought I would throw in mine to the conversation.
Matthew Oliphant (http://businesslogs.com)
I guess you're talking strictly web design here, because I was surprised to see no mention of programming skills. I know server-side programming is starting to get more into the web application side of things, but even sticking strictly to web design, it's very common to have to do client-side Javascript programming, right?
Anyway, it's interesting to see your breakdown. I guess adding programming skills would mess up your linear hierarchy, though, since you find tons of people who can do Javascript programming or PHP that don't know the first thing about CSS or usability, as well as many people who are great at CSS that couldn't write a decent program to save their life. :)
I guess to me it seems more like a bucket of tools that any particular person has a subset of - and the more tools you have, the better. It would be interesting if you could somehow assign a value to each skill, then add them all up.
This is why it's easier to just get a full-time salaried job, I guess. :) You don't have to worry about how much to charge.
Jennifer Grucza (http://jennifergrucza.com)
Paul,
If your pooint about the upper levels is "if a developer had all of these skillsets, they could charge $n/hour" then I somewhat agree.
However, the reality of the situation is very few people who do markup even understand things like usability and IA to the degree at which we could classify them as a professional just doing IA alone, for example.
With that said, what you have listed here is more of what I would call a hybrid type of person. They are an IA, a usability engineer, web developer, copywriter, and perhaps even web designer... all in one.
If you go look at any old salary survey of this industry you will see a huge "skew" to the figures based on metros (cost of living and demand), and experince. This is mostly because a lot of people believe they can do IA if they just know how to create wireframes and site maps... the same can be said for usability engineering.
How do you tell the difference? Well, this is why we have interviews. I can tell within the first 4 minutes of talking with someone how much of an IA they really are... not by the questions I ask, but by the way they answer them. The same can be said for usability engineers... not to mention the portfolio of a good designer will really speak for itself.
All in all, your point is good and I, for the most part, agree. I just think it needs a little refining.
Nick (http://www.digital-web.com)
Interesting to compare this post with Andrei's Gurus vs. Bloggers, round 2, posted today. I think the gurus all have some skills in the upper levels you came up with, but lack some skills in the lower levels - like CSS design skills.
The interesting thing is that many of those gurus are probably making a lot more than even $150/hr consulting and speaking, most not even touching any markup...
Mark Newhouse (http://gnuhaus.com/iblog/)
I think for level 1 and 2, the person needs to come in with some other skills -- typically organizational and communication skills. That is, if you have only basic skill in something, your core "product" is not that skill. If you have no other skills then you need to find an employer, you can't make it on your own.
Many people in the project management end of things are at this skill level, but obviously in the larger picture they aren't low-level.
Ian Bicking (http://blog.ianbicking.org)
Jennifer made my point already... I'd like to see a similar breakdown for developers... and maybe one for people who do both development and design.
When you're developing web applications, stuff like SEO is useless, but IA is the most important feature, above and beyond even coding... if you can't design it to be usable, you might as well not even be coding it.
I wouldn't put XHTML at level 1 or CSS at level 2, though. I'd put it more like this...
Level 1: HTML, CSS to format, but not for positioning, understanding how to use basic includes and templates -- these are the things you need to work efficiently and not waste excess time with redundant work. Some basic regex and understanding of good text editors should probably be here, too.
Level 2: usability, basic xhtml concepts, css 1 positioning and some CSS 2, and very importantly, understanding how to develop sites that work in Netscape 4 and other decrepit old browsers
Level 3: Pedantic XHTML, CSS in all its glory including the crap that doesn't work in *any* browsers reliably but someday might. Real cross-platform designs that degrade gracefully in old browsers without needing to test for browser type with javascript or server-side code.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
JC -
I know you're a wordsmith and all, but "pedantic" XHTML?
;)
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
XHTML only a pedant could love. Bleeding edge, everything must be perfectly valid and semantically correct and hey, it won't work in any browser, but that's the browser's fault. The stuff that's useless now due to lack of support and will be useless when the support is in place because it will have changed.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
no, that's politics. :-)
I didn't think pedantic was that obscure a word... but that could be because I've occasionally had that term applied to me. :-)
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
So yeah back on track (if that is possible now).
There are just some specialized graphic designers who might not fit any of these levels. There could be developers who fit in mostly with the backend stuff. I guess this mostly looks at it from the freelancers position who has to handle all aspects of web design.
To get more specific maybe each level would be beginning CSS with another level having expert CSS and so on. Assuming the levels follow a linear structure though would be a major fault and that is why I mentioned that I just made them up for an example.
Scrivs (http://businesslogs.com)
Err... I do not agree with your levels. In your levels being good at design is apparently the most important thing. For me and my clients this is far from how the reality is.
For me when we talk about levels of importance we have (1 being the lowest):
Level 1: HTML + CSS "coder"
Level 2: Graphic Artists
Level 3: Back-end programmers
Level 4: IA / Usability
Level 5: Business Strategists (How do you do business correctly on the web)
Each of these can then have a number sub-levels depending on a person's skills in each main-level.
Although none of the levels can be left out, the XHTML/CSS coder is the least important person. The visitors do not care about how things are coded as long as it looks good (graphic) and works well (AI).
The graphics artist ranks second lowest because in the long term if you do correctly support your business strategies and have a usable site then the design is nothing but empty eye-candy. One funniest things I see on the web is that the big successful companies has rather low-end design - most do not have design as such, but colors that support the content and navigation. The small companies tend to focus excessively on design.
Back-end programmers are very important if you anything else than an online business card. But, again they are just expensive manpower if you do not know how they can help your business.
Usability / AI are again useless if the site does not support your business. You can make very usable site with a wrong focus - and that will hurt sales.
About pricing then I think $100/hour is a bit low. Of course it depends on the level of expertise. A company that only does level 1-2 is not worth $100/hour.
Thomas Baekdal (http://www.baekdal.com)
well, remember thomas, he's focusing specifically on designers here, not developers... so yeah, online business cards. Maybe if we're nice he'll post another one that's more developer-oriented. You left out DBA (unless that's under back end coders) and project manager (unless that's under business strategist).
And of course, Level 0 -- beta testers and the like.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
DBA? Er... I guess you do not mean "Doctor of Business Administration" when you want to place it under Back-end programmers.
But, after looking it up I guess "Database Administrator"? Then yes, I would but them on the same levels as programmers. Let's call the "back-end people".
I would but Project Manager under Business, but it really depends on the situation. On many cases it is the project manager who should analyse the business strategy. If I have to divide them I would but Project manager below Business Strategists.
Oh... and Level -1 for those who get coffee
- they are definitely not important because I should get it myself ;)
Did he mean Design. Yes - I know.
Thomas Baekdal (http://www.baekdal.com)
Yes Thomas, DBA = Database Administrator.
I think (rather, I know) you've placed them too low in your structure. DBAs can command up to a 6 figure income - most start in the high 60's here in Houston (your mileage may vary).
I know a good deal of back-end programmers might be eqivalent, but I would argue that if you've got a whacked out, badly designed database - all the back-end programming in the world isn't going to help you.
In fact, to have a well designed database requires the DBA to have about as much working knowledge of the client as the business strategist / analyst. In fact, in some organizations the strategist and DBA are one in the same.
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
In fact, I would say DBAs would more likely be a subgroup of IA rather than back-end. because all DBA consists of primarily is architecting information efficiently. So, it should be between IA and Strategists.
Sorry to double post - and yes, it's about design, not development - I know.
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
I would also include in there somewhere knowledge of backend programming such as dynamic PHP pages. Also, knowledge of JavaScript and Flash can help you a ton. And, on top of that, it is extremely important depending on what you are going into, to know how to setup of content management for the customer and/or shopping cart software. Good database knowledge should also be in there IMHO. Those things that I just listed are what separates the men from the boys for where I see it. All the stuff that you listed, most can achieve with 2 or less years of business and art school. I think the keyword also might be flexibility.
Josh Bryant (http://www.thescenicroute.org/weblog/)
2 Years to become a IA expert, or a usability expert? I don’t think so Josh!
However, I do agree that there is a lot left out from these levels (remember Paul did say he had left some out - no time for a novel), and that some of the left out skills would fit into parallel levels to other ones.
I would say that Graphic Design goes at a parallel to Backend programming. Just not in the same level because they can work without each other.
DBA is higher up with IA, because IA is about more than just bringing focus to certain info on a page.
IA also goes hand-in-hard with the design (and graphic) elements of web development.
My point is this; most of these skills can really be separated truly, because they rely on each other too much.
For example, if you are just a usability expert, that CAN NOT code, designs, or do IA what does that make you? Jakob N!!!
Phil Baines (http://www.wubbleyew.com/blog)
I like thomas's 1-5, but i'd be more general about the 4th category, just all it 'architecture', could be DBA, could be IA, or more likely - both.
I'd place backend higher than graphic design in the ranking states, but i'd class PHP at the bottom of developer skill, (don't forget, there's C, Java, .NET, Perl etc).
The categories ought to overlap, really, as there's no way some newbie PHP developer beats my design experience.
I'd suggest that you can have all of the skills at a reasonable degree, but anyone who specialises in one will eventually outrank the scale by dint of experience.
Hey, shouldn't this be trumps?
My Bowman beats your Nielsen on actual design skills.
pid (http://www.pidster.com)
(nb + nd + np + na) * $min = ?
where n is experience in years, b=building, d=design, p=programming, a=architecture.
$min = minimum wage in your locality.
i got: 145, so it's blatantly bollox. or is it?
pid (http://www.pidster.com)
...and then there's marketing experts who charge $18,000 for an amateur web site - with little skill in any of those areas.
This topic seems to have gone from - "What you charge as a freelancer/design agency" to "What is the best hierarchy within a company".
As a freelancer I play all those roles and i'm constantly learning. The ONLY reason I refuse to work for most companies is because they do not enforce standards, and they want me to learn shitty ASP - which is not a requirement in my opinion when I have php, perl and many other server side skills. When I become the CEO of my own company, I won't be so microsoft based as a lot of other companies are today. What can I say, I like the freedom.
God knows how this topic got into a debate about hierarchy, when you should know it's quite different for each company.
Write down your skills and rate yourself honestly on how strong you are in each category.
That is what Paul said, he did not say "please whine forever about which sub-section is higher than another sub-section".
List how much you charge
Is what I say.
This is meant to be a learning experience, not a petty "debate" over who goes where. He did not mean his "skill list" to be seen as the standard that everyone else should live by.
Robert Lofthouse
Robert -
Part of the original post was the question of how much to charge for a skill level. While you are correct that there's no concrete hierarchy, there is some standard - ie IA and analysts will always be more "important" (costly) than template design.
In the larger context of this discussion, I think it is important to discuss hierarchy a bit.
For example, Paul mentions the skill / price level as it relates to freelancers and design agencies. I can tell you from years of experience that design agencies are expected by their clientele to be able to offer those "other" services which have been discussed, or at least be very good in outsourcing those duties. Freelancers too catch an occasional big job which needs to have parts outsourced to experts in other fields.
So how, in keeping on topic, is one supposed to give a qualified proposal to a potential client if they don't have some estimation of where that particular skill falls on the totem pole of importance / wage?
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
I don't see anyone whining here, Robert, nor does anything, for once, seem to be particularly petty. And most of the discussion over what's higher than other bits seem to be referring to other lists listed in comments.
I don't think Paul was expecting us to write those things down and do the reflecting in the comments.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
There is no "concrete" way of telling how much to pay someone.
Senior web site designers with little IA or Usabilty knowledge can get paid the same amount as an IA "expert". I know Cold Fusion developers who get paid far more than some people who everyone considers to be at the "top levels".
It all comes down to you deciding how much you're worth. It doesn't matter if someone is an IA expert, they probably haven't got the other skills necessary to do a complete job.
At the end of the day, I think freelance web site designers/developers can charge more than most design agencies - purely for the fact that they're a specialist in all those skills.
When I start my own company soon, it will be with a few other select partners. Does anyone deserve to earn more than someone else? just because their skill is classed as "the top". I don't see anyone's skills as being at the top - unlike people like Jakob Nielson who commands six figures, for what?
Does he sweat over code? does he make sure his graphics are pixel perfect? does he ensure the databases are stable? Is here there at 2am if a server fails?
No, he states the obvious like a lot of scientists. IA/Usabilty is very important - but just because someone can arrange information so that it's easy to read, doesn't mean they can command a high figure.
As I have said in posts time and time again - If you can prove your worth, and you know what you're talking about in all aspects, then you too can command a high figure. Stop measuring yourself against poles. In the end it's me who has to make a living, therefore my living factors come into it as well.
Sorry Jakob, you're just such an easy target :( lol
Robert Lofthouse
Well, Robert, alot of it comes down to supply and demand, like anything else. There are plenty of graphic designers out there. One who can do both print and web commands more income potential because there are fewer who are experienced in both. There are a ton of HTML coders and people who know how to use WYSIWYG tools. A smaller number of people who can do basic perl, php, coldfusion, whatever to do things like contact forms and the like... an even smaller number of people who are competent, expert, experienced, etc. An experienced, highly skilled DBA doesn't make 120K a year because she's intrinsically better in some way or more deserving of income, she makes it because her skills are in high demand and she went through all the effort needed to reach that point where many other people settled for less.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
I found it a little funny that right before the beginning of the comments, Google threw this ad in:
Custom Web Design - $199
Professional Custom or Template Web Design For Only - $199
www.valueweb.com
The bar has been set... :)
Brad Daily (http://bradleyboy.com/blog)
Yep. For the life of me, I'll never understand why the "independent web" allows itself to be sold out to whatever Google deems appropriate to advertise.
Damn... off topic again.
For sake of topic consistency, I think that even template designers justify more than $199.00
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
pid-
PHP at the bottom of developer skill? Is ASP not a development language?
Case in point ASP is easier than a drunk girl on prom night. I'm not saying PHP is hard at all, I'm just saying that she needs a copule more long islands before she's anywhere close to ASP's easiness.
Ryan (http://www.worldoneweb.com)
Well since I don't offer design services or any services for that matter on this site Google has free reign :-) Now why 37Signals allows those ads on SVN is beyond me.
Anyways, interesting discussion. We went from the topic on hand to the levels to Mark/JC and pedantics to DBAs to where does my skill fit in to Ryan's umm, interesting analogy. So does this mean we answered everything :-)
Scrivs (http://businesslogs.com)
Well, it means we discussed alot - don't know about answers.
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Probably one of those things that just goes unanswered quantitatively (nice word).
Scrivs (http://businesslogs.com)
Very nice word!
I think we might benefit by looking into other more established industries, and seeing how they 'layer' skill sets. I just don’t know how.
Ask the plumbers!
Phil Baines (http://www.wubbleyew.com/blog)
So I'm a level 3 or level 4 web designer. How many hit points do I get?
Andy Budd (http://www.andybudd.com/)
Not many, Andy. I would suggest sticking near to BaseCamp and slaying as many "FrontPage designers" and "Nephews who know everything about computers" as possible, returning to camp to heal up and learn new techniques from the various wise men and women gathered there. You may pick up "Pirated Software" and "$200 website fees" from their corpses... you can turn in the pirated software for a small reward, or sell it on the internet for slightly more, while risking loss of all reputation points. Once you've built up enough funding, you can build up your hosting credits, buy real software, and roll for advertising success rate.... and I've really taken the metaphor way too far. :-)
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
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#1
Hmmmm, I know I am past level 2, but what bites me in the ass is I am not an expert at the upper levels, but I have dabbled quite a bit at them and feel I utilize them in my own sites.
I obviously know and understand XHTML and CSS. I understand IA and SEO.
Honestly, if you can tap all the levels prior to the "DESIGN VISION" you stated, then I don't see any reason why having that "DESIGN VISION" wouldn't be on ones list, simply because it is essentially ALL THERE.
So in a nutshell, if your skills reach to the end of Level 4, then you have already reached LEVEL 5, in my opinion
Bryan (http://www.juicedthoughts.com)