March 19, 2004 | View Comments (39) | Category: CSS Vault
Summary: The CSS Vault is put on the auction block.
Okay here is the big news I was talking about. I am not actually putting it up for sale (unless someone wishes to offer me a crazy amount of money for it :), but it has come time for me to move the Vault to a group or individual who could give it more attention. My goal with the site was to always show the world that CSS design could be very appealing to the eye and build a repository of resources for people to find. I accomplished that goal and would like to move on. Obviously I will not just be handing the keys to anyone, but figured we could all discuss some viable options for what to do. Maybe WaSP would like to take over and move the site to new heights? In any case it is time to move on.
First of all let me clear one rumor, I am not a machine. No really, I'm not. Everyone knows I have about 101 sites that I am trying to focus on and the Vault has become the red-headed step-child. Often ignored and rarely fed. I have also found that I am getting more and more strict with which sites that I let in. As of right now I would say about 5%-10% of the sites submitted actually get in. Basically, the Vault has grown way beyond me.
I have other resources that I would like to start for developers and designers, but understand that there is only so much time in the day and sooner or later the man has to focus on making money (hence getting the job).
So anyways, there it is. I have thought long and hard about this and believe it is the right thing for me to do. So I guess we can discuss away (please avoid calling me crazy though, got enough women telling me that) and if you wish to offer suggestions via email, don't hesitate.
Trackback URL: http://9rules.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-tb.cgi/181
you could steer the site in the direction of being more of a resouce center and less of a gallery. maybe have a new site per week or something, and maybe open up the resource area and run it like ForeverGeek, allowing others to post resources/articles/whatever so that you are not burdened with providing so much in the way of content.
Jeremy Flint (http://www.jeremyflint.com)
To answer any questions about the resources:
1. Right now it looks at about 8-9 Gig per month, but I have taken care of hosting for the next couple of months and could move it elsewhere if needed.
2. I receive about 16-20 submissions a day now.
I would not mind selecting a group to take over, but delegating still means I am putting most of the work on myself and all the group has to do is decide if the site is in or not. I can do that in 3 seconds.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Perhaps this'll sound harsh, not really meant to be however.
Why not just let it die? It's served it's purpose - but eventually, and I think you're aware of this - it'll go the same way as all the other design showcases out there - linkdup, coolhomepages, ultrashock, designthread, mm site of the day, logoed...ad nauseum. Just another showcase of nice looking sites which often go months without being updated - been there, done that.
As design-of-the-moment concepts change, people get more into human focused usability...these sites will all change, go out of business, people will look to "sell them off" to someone else and a myriad of other things. To keep the site "fresh" will be a challenge for anyone.
I think if you read the posts from 37svn, Airbag and others, there's a seemingly growing number of people tiring of "cool site of the day" and design / redesign contests. The thought that seems to be prevailing is that a design is only "cool" if it brings a measurable success to the company or owner of the site. (again, sorry - that's just my take on what I read). None of these "vaults" do that.
Now, on a positive note, if you can repurpose CSS Vault to be a showcase of nice looking, standards compliant sites which increased the sales of XYZ Company by 250% from their old school design, then you might have something.
If you can't deal with it anymore, just let it go. You built a good brand with CSS Vault, which you can use as a personal showcase. Don't put it in the hands of someone else (even if they have a good rep) to screw up.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Whatever the final choice should be, I just want to let you know that CSS Vault is and has been a great source of inspiration quite unique. It helped me many many times in overpassing some inspiration block.
Considering this, I really would hate to see it die. Maybe just update it once a week with a fixed number of sites (3-5). That would also mean that the quality of the sites would increase dramatically.
Congrats on a superb job so far and I'm sure you'll take the right decision in the end (just don't let it die :)
Lucian Slatineanu
Write up a good list of guidelines for submission for the gallery. Charge a buck or two per submission. No different than how most writing journals operate -- it takes time to read the submission whether you choose it or not, so there's a small token reading fee. If it's not worth a buck or two to the site owner/designer to get their site looked over, it probably wouldn't be accepted anyway.
You could also charge a larger fee for a critique/review of their site... again, something a lot of publishers do... if you pay an extra $10-50 dollars, they'll give a detailed review with suggestions for improvement.
This would both trim the excess submissions, giving you hopefully a higher percentage of quality choices, and bring in a little extra income.
Shunt the design resources off to a group of editors like you're doing with forever geek.
Do you get a lot of duplicate suggestions for that? Maybe write up a database app to store them and compare URLs against it on submission, if it's already in there, bounce back a "thank you but this site is already in the directory, if you wish to submit it anew, please note why (substantial changes requiring modification to the description, etc)"
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
If someone thinks of a creative group solution I'd offer some time to help. Online project management could be solved easily as well *ahem*basecamp*ahem*.
Mike P. (http://www.fiftyfoureleven.com.com/sandbox/weblog/)
Along the lines of JC's comment -
If you combine the concept of your critiques / interviews and combine it with the vault and, when appropriate, ask how this change to CSS affected the site's metrics - perhaps you could score an interview from AOL or INC for example.
Then you'd have a site which provided not only graphic inspiration, but also insight into the "behind the scenes / case study" and also a research tool which other designers can use when approaching a potential client as to why they need to redesign their table-based site.
On the record, I'd much rather see you repurpose the vault into a useful tool rather than let it die completely.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
I, for one, would hate to see the CSS Vault die off. I always enjoy looking at the sites, and it is a good source of inspiration. Personally, I've enjoy the gallery more than the resources, and whatever happens, I hope that it will keep going.
I think a group of individuals taking over might be a good choice, as if you're getting swamped, the next guy probably will be, as well. Perhaps you could hand pick some people to take care of it who's aesthetic judgment you trust, and are likely to only add high-quality submissions.
Ryan Brill (http://www.ryanbrill.com/)
I use the vault a lot more for the resources section than the gallery section. I look at the sites in the gallery once, then I'm done. But I return to the resources section again and again, and I think it would be bad to let it die. Especially since I would then have to bookmark and keep track of all those resources myself! It's a lot easier if you do it for me. :)
Derek Rose (http://www.twotallsocks.com/)
Note to self: Never post a comment, without previewing first, while stuffing face with pizza and trying to beat deadline.
Bottom line of the garbled mess above - repurpose vault into useful research tool, not just gallery, by incorporating JC's thoughts on journals and submission fees.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
No way the vault should go away. It isn't even a year old is it? It's still has room to grow before it becomes another linkdup.com
Brian (http://www.litzdesigns.com)
After re-reading your post and then reading the comments, a majority of people (including my 2nd) are suggesting "you could..."
What I get from your post is that you don't want to anymore and would rather someone else did.
From strictly a business perspective, don't try to sell (or give away)something your heart's not into.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Why not combine it with the web standards awards? The vault could comprise a more comprehensive list of resources and additional attractive CSS-based sites, with the awarded sites being featured more exclusively. I don't know - just a thought.
Ste Grainer (http://www.wanderlost.org)
How would you combine two separate sites. I did think about doing some sort of cross-linking thing with web standard awards and the daily standard, but of course those thoughts always seem to escape me.
I have gotten a lot of great offers from people willing to help and in all likelihood I might just setup a team to handle the Vault. Must put some thought into it.
Mark: From a business persepective it is different giving away something that is yours and something that has become a community resource I believe. In regards to what Fried said at 37signals about moving passed "standards talk", well I have my own rebuttal for that one just waiting.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Well Paul -
As is par for the course in my accidently acquired role here - I disagree with you a bit on both counts.
However, I look forward to your rebuttal (hopefully, you'll post that next to be timely) because I think Jason and Greg are right on target.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
I will try my best Mark. Of course I wouldn't necessarily be going against those two, because I would get my ass kicked, but I do believe there is one huge flaw they are forgetting.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
FWIW I agree with Mark to some extent. I think it would be valuable to have a site which showed how redesigns improved (or hurt) traffic, profitablity, and other metrics. I'm not sure CSSVault is the proper place for that, though... it would take too much backfitting and many of the sites that are in there wouldn't be able to provide that information.
As for Jason and Greg, they're right, though at least one person seemed to be throwing a hissy fit at what Greg said. They're not saying standards aren't important... just that the *real* importance is in the success of a design. "Standards" are just tools to help reach that goal of success, whether it's measured in dollar signs or smiles, and a great looking site that's perfectly compliant doesn't mean crap if the person using it can't find what they want or isn't convinced to buy or whatever the point of the site is. And perfect standards compliance doesn't mean much if the design still sucks, for that matter. (doesn't that "chap your hide"? heh)
The point is that too many people are beating the standards drum and ripping out each others throats like a bunch of idiotic zealots over tiny ridiculous nonsense, while not paying enough attention to the real point, the product itself and what it's supposed to do.
Anyway, though honestly I've only rarely even looked at CSSVault (I just don't care that much), it's a valuable resource that I'd hate to see go away, and I'd love to see you make it profitable.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Awwww. You totally decided to do this when I only promised to make out with you, right? I mean, why maintain the sexmobile if it don't get you no Alanna-sex? How very sad and I'm going to go cry into my Dreamweaver now.
But to be more relevent, you should have people helping you update the site, much like you are doing with Forever Geeks. I'm actually surprised that you have decided not to do that, all things considering. And, really, if you would like a helping hand... I've got one, if you know what I mean. ;)
Alanna (http://www.virginmoistness.com)
I'm sure you'd have no shortage of volenteers to staff the Vault, and worthy ones at that. All's needed is an eye for good looking sites and semantic code, and the ability to take and crop screenshots. Doesn't seem like fantastically hard requirements.
David House
My immediate thought was 'let it die', so I was surprised someone else said this. He's quite right. You've grown out of it, you don't have a responsibility to the web, it was just something you did because you wanted to, now it's become a personal burden. It doesn't have to be. Don't listen to these people who want to make you some sort of cheerleader for CSS design, you are your own person. Cut loose and get on with what you want to do. Better than let it die: kill it.
Joel (http://biroco.com/)
Well I think that the number of updates that the vault recieves now is more than enough. There aren't all that many CSS-based designs out there, and new resources and tutorials aren't posted all *that* often. I would much rather see 10-15 designs and 5-10 resources (or less) per month than a whole bunch of blogs that get in there for the sole reason that "I haven't updated lately and this site uses an image for their header". Thats not what *design* is about. I personally love the Vault, because its not as if I can go on Google and type "great css based design" and then surf the css-based internet through links to css-based sites only. There's no "accessible with web standards design webring". So through your help and the many submissions, at least I am able to see what people have designed with CSS every so often. That doesn't have to be every day or even every week.
So I say raise your standards and slow it way down. Perhaps announce "biweekly updates" where all the good enough ones are posted once every two weeks. That way you dont have to feel as pressured, but the Vault still lives on. It just changes from daily reading to more of a semi-updated library.
But thanks for taking it this far, Scrivs - I love what you've done with it.
thomas (http://gendes.elivy.com)
Well, may I suggest you think about what Adam Howell did not so long ago.
He changed Daily Standards to Weekly Standards and I think the site quality and his sanity are both the better for it.
http://www.weeklystandards.com/about
John
John (http://wow-factor.com)
Scrivs
Please don't close the Vault. I know that there are many of us around the world who would offer to help you.
I agree with John that Adam's switch from daily to weekly has made his content more select. As CSS design continues to grow, the Vault should show us the best - and we should aspire to have our work featured on it.
As David Soul once sang, "Don't give up on us baby..."
Malarkey (http://www.malarkey.co.uk)
I'm going to be blunt and honest: I don't want you to close the vault for selfish reasons. Why? Because since being on the Vault, I've managed to get the most hits in my entire website existence, and because of all the exposure, I'm getting nice little mentions all over the place.
And frankly, I'm sure a lot of the more obscure (i.e. unfamous) Vaulters feel the same. ;-)
Bottom line: people visit the Vault regularly. It would be a shame to see it go away.
The resources section, of course, is another nice thing that I check often. I don't care if you manage to only update once a week, just as long as it stays up. It's a great site.
Lea (http://xox.lealea.net/)
Making it just a weekly thing would not make anything easier because then I would just have to go over 100 emails at one time. Been doing some thinking and I looks as though I am going to make a committee as well as expand the Vault.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Your right. It is obviose that you will need other people to help you with it.
Here is an idea, instead of having a group of people who look after it all at the same time. Why not have a group of people who share the responsibility by each one looking after it for a week at a time.
You could then have a little info box: "Your judge this week is: John Doe" - with a link to the persons site.
Also, each person could be restricted to say only five sites. This will help keep the standard high, even if they wait until thier last day to post all five (just to be sure).
Phil Baines (http://www.wubbleyew.com/blog)
Hi Paul,
I know how hard it can be juggling work and the need to make a living, with running multiple voluntary projects. However I do think the Vault is an excellent site, and am constantly amazed by the shear number of good sites you find.
When I first started my blog, there weren't really any sites featuring CSS based design. As such, I made a point of posting up as many sites as I could. However, that has pretty much subsided now, in part due to the Vault.
I'd find myself coming across sites, but by the time I got round to posting them, you'd already have featured them on your site. You also seem to have the knack of finding great looking CSS sites as if out of thin air. God knows where you find them all from, but I'm glad that you do.
I'd personally been wanting something like the Vault for a while, which was why I was so keen on getting the WSA running. However I also realised that it wasn't a job for one person, which is where the WSA work really well. We have 3 full time judges, plus a number of SOTM judges, which helps reduce the workload.
We have also automated the submission process to some extent, which makes trawling through submission much easier. My suggestion would not be to quite the Vault, but to distribute and automate as much of the admin as possible. It's a great resource and it would be a big loss if it disappeared.
Andy Budd (http://www.andybudd.com/blog/)
Yeah, it looks as like that is the path I will take. Submission process could definitely use a rework as well.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
yeah, throw a database back end on it and compare submissions to weed out duplicates.
I still think you should charge a reading fee ;-)
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
I think the idea of charging a fee for a critiqe (spelling?) is a good idea. However, just 'getting on' should remain free.
Phil Baines (http://www.wubbleyew.com/blog)
Well, Phil, the idea is that the fee would be very small to submit... just to weed out the sites that aren't serious.
Of course, a lot of the submissions come from people who find them, rather than the individual designers.
Maybe just require membership in scrivs' 9rules network to submit, with unlimited submissions, and a credit to the submitter on all accepted posts.
:-)
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
"Of course, a lot of the submissions come from people who find them, rather than the individual designers."
Yeah, that is what I was thinking about. Your idea of a member ship would work very well as a solution to it. Well done that man!
I still like my idea of having a delegated 'judge' every week. Instead of having a group of people that can end up arguing as to whether something should be allowed on.
Then at any one time, the decision is down to ONE person. But that person will be forced into being selective because they can only post, say 5 sites in 'their week' of power.
Does anyone else think this would work? Or am I just dreaming?
phil baines (http://www.wubbleyew.com/blog/)
"member ship" - what the hell?? I really need to start proof reading things before I post.
I wonder who the captain of the "member ship" is?!!
phil baines (http://www.wubbleyew.com/blog/)
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#1
Maybe you can get more people to help you review the links. Even a committee. If it grows again, the work can be delegated to many committees, like team A, team B, team C, and readers should know which team accepted which site. Over time, readers may notice some preferences in some teams. ^_^
Zelnox