August 31, 2004 | View Comments (32) | Category: Our Thoughts
Summary: Competition in the community and how I like to handle it.
So many times we focus on the “community” that we are involved in and I know many of the non-pleasant things around us do not get explored. Silly me to go trip on my ass and try to explore them.
The quick question that I am asking is how viable are these type of websites still? The top examples are obviously Digital-Web and A List Apart, but there are a couple of others. With the independent web and how quickly and easily everyone spreads their own knowledge do these leaders still maintain their upper echelon status?
Now Nick is a friend of mine and obviously ol' Z is greatly respected so I am not trying to start any crazy nonsense with them so you crazy folks out there try not to do the same.
When we start our own sites (blogs, whatever) we learn that content is what draws in the masses. If you give this content to another site obviously you are doing it for the good of the community, but you also could be hurting your own site (yes, yes devil's advocate). However, getting your name on anyone one of these sites does build up a little recoginition and you might possibly get a couple more people coming to your site, but it's nothing like working on your site to develop a reputation.
The reason I asked this is because what if someone else was to start another independent web magazine? How well do you think it would succeed in this crowded field? Blogs have given us the power to quickly put up sites and content and build wild dreams of success, but what happens to us analyzing the offerings out there? Looking at the competition and whatnot.
Stylegala was posted on the Vault last week and with it I mentioned that I hoped it was the last CSS gallery to popup. Of course I can't say something like this without expecting a crazy outcry in the community and it happened. People believe the more the merrier and so on and so on. What I was thinking was that soon we will have 50 sites like this that all have the same content. (note: I do enjoy all the current offerings for CSS galleries)
To the casual reader this is no big deal, but to me it is slightly annoying. I love to see new sites just as much as the next person and I love even more to see new content. Unfortunately the amount of beautiful CSS sites popping up in the world is slim. I am still getting about 30 Vault submissions a day and you can see the limited number that get put in the Gallery and Noteworthy sections.
If you are going to start a site with a purpose to make it successful you have to study the competition. And even though we are a community it is still a competition to get some of the eyes of our readers. For example, if someone is writing a blog entry and they mention “beautiful CSS sites”, how many times do you think they are going to list the 4-5 CSS gallery sites out there as opposed to just listing the first one that comes to mind?
David himself (the Stylegala guy) tells me how he will be adding new stuff to the site so that it is just not another CSS promotion site. I am glad he is thinking like that. I know I am still young in the web game to many of you (others might see me as a veteran), but I am still surprised to see not enough people pushing the boundaries of what their sites can offer. Sure it's easy to create a CSS thumbnail gallery like I have on the Vault, but how is it going to attract people to it? Will you be disappointed to see it not succeed?
Do I think we have hit our limit of CSS galleries? Of course I do or I wouldn't even bother writing this. It's like creating another ALA or DW when you have to deal with them and the 1,000 designers blogs. I know this sounds like I am trying to discourage people, but moreso I am trying to get people to think a little bit differently.
Stylegala has a ratings system which seems to be of some success. Way to push the boundaries. I myself had a rating system in the works for the next Vault update, but it wasn't with the entries. It involves the comments...
A lot of people build up reputations for stuff they have done in the community. Shea is considered a one-hit wonder by some for his work on the CSS Zen Garden. “That's all he has done” I have read many people say. Hell, if that's all some people do could you imagine how happy they would be? Certainly an unfair knock against him, but that is how some people see it. Cederholm contributed to two large websites, but what other major things has he done since then others may think? I have a blog, the Vault and some other sites whose designs could be done by a 10-year old so why should I get any praise?
It's the way people in this community think. I know because I see comments about it all the time. In any case people will see a site like Whitespace or the Vault or even Forever Geek and think that if he can do it I can do it as well. Sure anybody can do it, but can you do it better is what you need to ask yourself. Can you take his formula and produce something better by adding more to it? These questions are not asked enough of us, instead we think replication equals success and in the end many of us end up being upset for all the wrong reasons.
You will create a blog, but how will it differ? You will create a CSS gallery, but will it just be like the rest? We are a community and we are also each other's competition. I thrive off of it because it keeps me on my toes. I know that better blogs are coming out everyday and when they surpass me I lose the eyes of my audience. Same goes with my other sites.
Competition also exists within ourselves. How many times have you seen someone redesign only to think that now you have to go back to your site and redesign something? How many great articles have you read and thought to yourself that you should've come up with that concet? Competition is good for everyone, but if we don't meet and exceed that competition then we have done nothing for this community or ourselves. Harsh, but that's how I see it.
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Great article, but I don't think it's conclusions are limited to the web design community, it's a problem with the whole web today. I think it has to do with some kind of need for confirmation, like "omg, someone takes the time to visit my blog!", and you get a real kick. Nothing wrong with that at all, since I guess that's the driving power for lots of blog/site owners today, but the thing you always should ask yourself is:
what will this site/post/comment(!) bring the reader that isn't already out there, why should they waste their time on my writings if similar -- and perhaps better -- content is already out there? should I just link another site instead?.
Jacob Rask (http://www.jacobrask.net)
2 points I want to make.
First, I agree that having too much of one thign can be overkill. Right now, there seems to be 4 main css vault type websites. Thats fine, but I agree that if it gets to like 50 which I am sure it will, then it will seem like overkill, the content will feel more like its spread thin, and the success of any one of those sites will be diminished because of that overkill.
Your cssvault has a great reputation and has alot to offer then just the Picture of the site and a link. I believe that even in terms of competition, your site will still do well as its the most well known and first to come to mind when thinking, CSS GALLERIES.
Originally, I was one of those masses that says, "The more the merrier" but that is true to an extent. Right now, I am content with 4 galleries, because I for sure don't want to bounce around to 50 sites just to see the latest css offerings.
Now to my 2nd point. This is about Style Gala.
Everyone has a different rating system and thats fine. I was quite surprised when I sent my submission to Style Gala and never saw it show up. That was until I saw a referal link that put me in the "Almost Made it in August" category. I was shocked to say the least as the 3 other main CSS Galleries (css beauty, your vault, and unmatched style) through me into their main listings. But I won't let it bother me as I know everyone is different, however, I also *might* question their rating methods as I do not know what they were, but I got in a discussion at Bluism.com and not only did Bluism not make it, but there are ALOT of nice looking sites in that category that didn't make it. But one of the kickers is that Lea from lealea.net sent her submission in and moments later was on the "Almost Made it List".
Then, in that Bluism discussion, it seems that Fernando Dunn II sent his design in and minutes later, he refreshed the Style Gala ALMOST Made it page and sure enough, there he was in the list.
I think he has every reason to be a little skepticle of the methods or rating system that is going on. Don't know if its automated or not, but if it takes you 2 minutes to decide if a site makes it or not, that seems a little fast to me. I thought the idea was to submit not only a good design, but whether the site is coded well and also that is has many good design elements to it.
Anyways, those are the two points I wanted to make.
Bryan (http://www.juicedthoughts.com)
I'm one of the people who made a comment on the stylegala entry in the vault. I wasn't thinking about it in terms of competition or copying or introducing something new etc. My main concern is exposing CSS and standards to more people. By discouraging others from creating other CSS galleries, exposure to CSS stops growing.
Look, you and I and everyone else who comes here are starting to know CSS and standards like the back of their hand. It's nothing new for us, but do you realise how many other designers out there still have no clue what these things mean? That's all I was trying to say.
I also think there is room for another Webzine. I can already see the lightbulb flashing above Scrivs' head :)
John Serris (http://phonophunk.phreakin.com/)
I agree partly with you in that more is not better. I believe that the whole web today is saturated with repeated sites, sites that say the same no matter which one you visit. But there is something that prevents this.
Innovation.
New sites must provide something different to be succesfull, something that the other sites don't have.
Many sites, CSS Vault-type included, do this unintentionally. Whoever or whatever the method for rating pages is the way for these pages to be different. I visit only CSS Vault because I like the pages that come up, I've visited the other 3 main CSS Vault-type pages but I still like this one better.
My guess is that natural selection will do it's job, pages that don't have any 'new' content will not succed. Like you say:
"Can you take his formula and produce something better by adding more to it?"
I think all new 'imitation' sites should ask themselves that question, and save themselves money and time.
Hermann (http://www.theragingche.com/)
Well, thats the idea these other sites have is to make money I am sure.
I mean, they are playing the business model pretty good.
Find a niche in the market, (ahem, css sites), they noticed that the vault was very successful in doing this, so they implemented a plan of their own so they can try to capitalize on the success that CSS sites are bringing to the web and the interest people have in seeing them.
There will eventually be a new niche for people to get involved with, but for now, this is there way of trying to make money.
If I am a business man and wearing gum on your shoe is starting to become popular, I am going to try and develop a product or system that gets that gum onto your shoe faster, better, and with higher quality. Thats the idea at least in terms of business, to one-up the other person.
Many people have good intentions as I see the other vault sites seemed to have. They just want to expose CSS for what it really is and the benefits. I can't argue with that, but I won't sit here and say that I don't think they are trying to profit off of it. And I don't think there is anything wrong with that either.
sorry, I think I started rambling and may have fell off topic.
Bryan (http://www.juicedthoughts.com)
Bryan: There is no way I would ever add an automated script. Just think about all the spam... I review every site manually and did so with the sites you mention. However, stylegala strives to be unique and present unique designs, therefor I am cautious about adding already recently promoted sites in the gallery. I had already seen the sites you mentioned and I knew they wouldnt make it. Thats why I have the "almost made it".
Maybe the vault, cssbeauty and unmatched style has spoiled you guys, just because you get an entry in one of them you get dissapointed for not getting listed in the others. Well I have news for you: Stylegala is not just another thumbnail gallery. I dont just collect all submissions and feeds from the sites mentioned and put them up in a gallery, that would be pointless.
About the article: I agree with you Scrivs. Actually, RSS already makes replicate sites pointless if nobody gathers all feeds and strip out the duplicates. Stylegala will grow to something very unique and we are really making an effort on this one. Wait and see for yourself.
David Hellsing (http://www.stylegala.com)
I agree, we don't really need another css showcase unless it gives us something more unique than what's already on offer. I made a pretty tame comment along these lines over at unmatchedstyle.com for which I was quite strongly reprimanded by the site owner - very unprofessional and over the top.
Jim Amos (http://graphikjunkie.com/)
Thank you David for clearing that up. Keep in my, my viewpoint and others was perceived by what we saw and a few incidents that, at the time, seemed weary. I appreciate you clearing it up.
I don't feel like I was spoiled at all. I was appreciative that the other sites listed me the way they did and I am still appreciative that I am at least on your directory, even if its not the main section.
However, I am curious about something. I am curious at what type of things you look at in the sites you accept.
Do you only accept "brand new" css sites. Obviously if Mezzoblue was to submit something, you would include that into the main directory as you would for zeldman, designby fire, or simplebits, even though Mezzoblue seems to be the only one in there for now.
But I would really like to know what everyone at all the CSS Directory type sites uses as their rating system. What do you look for, how important is the code, what is considered unique, etc...
I think those are fair questions.
Thanks again
Bryan (http://www.juicedthoughts.com)
Bryan, I think we are stepping too far away from the subject here. Feel free to contact me by email or read our about section if you have any further comments or questions.
David Hellsing (http://www.stylegala.com)
"Nice site, but it was already featured in css vault, like most of the sites you choose. Isn't it possible to find websites that we haven't already seen enough of?"
And Jim wonders why I perceive this as a threat, and wonders why I was unprofessional about this.
IF you go through all the listings you will find about 10 entries that were *previously* listed on other galleries before I listed them. And in every single instance the holder of the site submitted their own site.
I am not going to deny someone the right to be listed on unmatched style if they want to, when it is evident that they do deserve the right to be there.
And yes it is hard to find sites that you haven't seen enough of. There is a lackluster amount of keywords that will return quality results in search engines, after that I have to wait for submissions.
Sorry that I am such an ass about it, but I take what you said personal. For the reason that I maintain the site a lot of times at the expense of something else. There are other things that I could be partaking in, yet I spend time on other projects.
I just noticed that Alex posted a site today that I posted 12 days ago, do you now have a personal vendetta against him? Some sites deserved to be listed despite where they have already been listed, and I apologize that we don't always have 100% original content.
I have only been running unmatched style for 2 months, and I have hit a certain level of bitterness that I can only assume Paul has hit numerous times.
It seems no matter how hard I try, and how much of a good thing it is that I am doing for my visitors. Someone is going to naysay my work, and claim that I am not doing a good enough job.
Paul, Alex, David and myself run our sites for a way to give something back to a community that we care about, and love. Maybe in the beginning we were doing it for ourselves, as a way to spend our free time, but that goes away.
Now we run them for everyone else except ourselves, at the expense of being ostracized by everyone who has ever had a negative thought. Such as Jim, who though my arguments are valid still finds in his mind that I am some evil person just because I did something that didn't please him.
I entitle this "2 cents from another asshole."
Ryan Latham (http://www.unmatchedstyle.com)
The web is a free, open system. Anyone is allowed to produce content for it. If your content has any value people will respond to it. If your content sucks people won't. It's simple Darwinism. If other sites are diverting attention from your site, then YOU need to innovate, not the other way around. In a free market it's the innovators and those that continue to produce quality work that will prevail. And there are still those that produce content because they want to, not because they want traffic. Where's the foul?
Geoffrey (http://www.lookatlao.com)
If your content has any value people will respond to it. If your content sucks people won't. It's simple Darwinism. If other sites are diverting attention from your site, then YOU need to innovate, not the other way around.
This is the core of this discussion. Thanks for putting words to my thoughts, I couldnt agree more.
David (http://www.stylegala.com)
Ryan, again, you're overreacting. I'm not calling you evil, I'm saying you're acting over the top regarding just one comment. Admitedly, I could have gone into more detail in my comment and had more tact, but I didn't have the time. I was just offering an opinion. You, being the editor in chief, could have deleted my comment, instead you went ape-shit with a response (and this one) which assumed my intentions and attitude are far worse than they actually are, which I just think is a bit silly.
Jim Amos (http://graphikjunkie.com/)
I think it is a bit silly that you feel that this it was somehow geared only towards you. It isn't, I get the same asinine comments all the time. And I think when it is written, how it is in your case it is the most awesome display of ignorance that a human can possibly show.
Nice site, but it was already featured in css vault, like most of the sites you choose.
Now I have roughly 80 entries from the past two months, and I just went through and counted all that have been listed on other sites. And there is a total of 8, I did not get the memo of 10% becoming the majority, or as you say most.
Please chose your words carefully because I do take offense to what could be considered an attack on the integrity, and quality of my work.
Had you not used the word most I would have not been as harsh to react as I did. But the way you constructed the sentence its as if you were accusing me of picking random entries off the vault and listing them.
Ryan Latham (http://www.unmatchedstyle.com)
Well I didn't realize you were so sensitive to certain words. I apologize for seeming like an asshat. I was just tired of seeing the same sites on all these css showcase pages. I'd have reacted the same to scrivs if I saw it on your site and then spotted it in the css vault.
Jim Amos (http://graphikjunkie.com/)
Where's the beef, Paul?
There are how many billions of websites out there now? With how many more CSS designers coming into age every day?
C'mon. Certainly the handful of CSS repositories that exist out there won't be able to cover all that's coming down the pike.
So there's a little repetition in the submissions, or the function / scope of the repository itself - so what?
As long as there has been modern day browsing on the web, there has been "cool site of the day" type sites - all over the place.
Go to any of the others out there -
coolhomepages.com
linkdup.com
Macromedia's Site of the Day
Ultrashock.com
Favoritewebsiteawards.com
...ad nauseum...
Is there repetition? Of course there is. Do you see anyone complaining that their territory is being trounced on? Nope.
Besides, isn't one of the very cool things that draws people to blogs is that you one can start a topic or conversation, get linked, and have that conversation picked up and continued elsewhere?
Didn't you just post on how to do this more effectively?
If one of the points of a blog is to add your own opinion or spin to something that was posted elsewhere, then where's the foul in the context of this conversation?
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
The point is you shouldn't be that way. Look at it this way; CSS Vault, CSS Beauty, unmatched <style>, Stylegala, we are the media for good looking sites.
I get irritated flipping the channel and seeing the same damn thing on every channel, but the fact is you cannot stop that, it is always going to happen, so it's better to sit back and accept that rather than try to change the world.
But you have to see it from my perspective, and the rest of us. It is genuinly hard to find content worth posting, the majority of the content that gets listed is delivered right to me through email because I gave up on searching a while ago. And when something is presented to me, and its already been listed elsewhere I do not see the harm in listing it.
I get downplayed a lot, even Stylegala gets more recognition than I do. Because hey, fuck it. Doesn't bother me because I was just as content as when I was getting 20 hits a day, compared to the hundreds and sometime thousands I get daily.
What you need to understand though, is because I am on a lower scale than the others; I get less quality content presented to me, so it is inevitable that I will have to use the submissions that have been listed elsewhere to maintain this quota that I have set for myself.
Ryan Latham (http://www.unmatchedstyle.com)
Mark, I got no beef. I just want people to realize with competition should come innovation. Sure there will be more gallery sites, but what good would they do if they copy the exact same formula with what has already been created? Especially with the limited content we are working with.
I just wanted people to understand (like I am a teacher or something...haha) that you should continue to push competition, but that should also be done by pushing the boundaries of your own site.
I had no intentions of starting this crazy war in these comments as each of the other gallery folks know that I respect what they are doing as each of them emailed me first to let me know their intentions.
Hell, in fact I even said I embraced competition so maybe we missed that sentence, huh Mark? :-P
Scrivs (http://businesslogs.com)
Scrivs, you know I never wanted a war with you, nor did I want this sense of competiton. As I don't want competition with Alex or David.
But it seems that I get all these emails, and as you can see, comments from people that want their to be more competiton between all of us. They are pushing war while I would rather have more unity. Its nice to see new content, but we all know what we are working with, and it is not always there.
People assume that we get irritated when one of the other sites lists something we list. I don't I've noticed in the last 2 weeks that Alex has been listing some of the sites I had already listed, and quite a few of mine have also made your noteworthy section.
Threatend? Not even. I think its a honor that you guys are paying attention to what goes on over at my little site.
Ryan Latham (http://www.unmatchedstyle.com)
Paul -
My reference to beef pertained to the "meat" of your argument for innovation - not as a gripe.
Why is it necessary to innovate and push the envelope in the way an opinion is expressed? That's all these galleries and vaults are - an expression of opinion, right?
What about the sites such as Designbyfire, Brainfuel and the countless others (especially regarding the recent Microsoft redesign) which aren't galleries specifically, but still occasionally post about new / updated CSS sites?
They're doing the same thing the gallery sites are doing. Putting up a screenshot, expressing an opinion on what works and doesn't and then opening it up for discussion.
Do they need to innovate as well?
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Well those sites already have other content going for them so I don't see how they fit into the argument. As for the other gallery sites, do they need to innovate? Of course not. Do they need to innovate some if they wish to become successful? I think so.
Scrivs (http://businesslogs.com)
The main point Scrivs is trying to make (correct me if I'm wrong) is that, just as with design, it's folly to just copy someone elses.
What you need to do is to find your 'nodes of inspiration' and evolve them into something new, something better.
If not, we'll just get stuck with 50 odd sites that are all basicly the same, where only the top 3 (or 5) will get the majority of visitors with the rest marginalised.
AkaXakA (http://akaxaka.gameover.com)
Bottom line -
Innovate how? Post site, express opinion, discuss.
What about this wheel needs to be re-invented?
Also, I'm not buying into your last statement -
"...Well those sites already have other content going for them..."
So do these gallery sites for the most part. The only difference is the weight of the items discussed is reversed.
Someone once said not too long ago that,
"...blogs aren't huge websites that give us the possibility to innovate..."
Hmm...
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
AkaXakA -
The point I'm making is that the very nature of blogs is to take something and pass it on.
Just open your feedreader or go to blogdex, technorati, blogshares...look at the popular sites that show trackbacks.
The whole point is to show how popular a subject is by how many are talking about it.
According to Scrivs' own law, the design of these gallery type sites is limited to begin with because of their singular focus, so again, how do you innovate?
Mark (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Mark -
My comment wasn't really directed at you at all, it was just an attempt to summarize the point Scrivs is making.
But as I've got myself dragged into this, let me direct respond to your comment:
If the blog only has feeds that it pulls from other sites, it just won't be succesfull if it's the 150th one doing this. (See Kottke, he was one of the first in the sections he covers and he adds personal insights and comments too.)
And I think Scrivs' law is flawed in a way, because it basicly says: Layout is limited by the number of elements. And as this is like saying that you can only eat in a certain number of ways depending on what cuttlery you have, I find it rather too obvious to warrent it's own law. (no offence Scrivs)
The whole point is to show how popular a subject is by how many are talking about it.
And how do you get a lot of people talking about it? Can you imagine this conversation?
Elmo: Hey I found this totally new blog that covers exactly the same sites and issues as all of the other 20+ blogs that I visit frequently and I know you visit too. Even it's own design is quite similar as the others because they're using the same elements as all the others!
Ernie: OMG yes! I was looking for something that doesn't add anything at all to my list of blogs. I can just sit back and lazily scroll over all the content that has already passed my eyes 10 times already! Thanks for pointing this out to me, I'll tell all my friends about this too!
See what I'm getting at?
PS. This was purely meant as entertaining and certainly not patronising or offensive. Also, Elmo and Ernie are trademarks of the Jim Henderson Company.
AkaXakA (http://akaxaka.gameover.com)
Alright, let's look at Design by Fire. Andrei is a great writer, but who knows what would have happened if he would've written about the same stuff that I had or Keith had. He put together some wonderful entries on Nielsen and bam he hit it big. He innovated.
I have no idea where you are getting design from as that isn't even an issue in this discussion. However, if you can't think of any ways that more Gallery sites could innovate then I guess we won't be seeing one from you ;-) I can think of plenty of ways that the Vault could be improved upon and they are all ways that aren't even touched upon by the other sites.
That is what I call innovation.
Again, I could really careless if people don't wish to innovate with their own content. They just don't get noticed. Easy as that. Once you do become established the amount of innovation you need becomes less. I think we can consider the Vault as one of its kind for the CSS community and therefore I had first-mover advantage. Usually this means that I needed less innovation than the 10th iteration site that comes out. But does that stop me from thinking of new ways to improve? No.
Why gallery sites are being compared to blogs is beyond me, but anyways yes all the popular sites in Technorati have one thing that many people starting off just can't get now: Longevity and first-mover advantage.
As AkaXakA stated, if Kottke started today with the same type of content he is doing now I wouldn't be so sure that his popularity would be where it's at now. Same with Zeldman and many others. Point is they innovated first and therefore they got their positions by earning them.
So for one last time. If you don't innovate I could care less. I just get tired of seeing people complain how they don't get noticed and how other people (eg. myself) get recognized for doing nothing special.
It's no different than any other industry in the world.
Scrivs (http://businesslogs.com)
Part of the value of the magazine sites (boxes and arrows is the other great one) is that they have a level of quality that is higher than many (most?) blogs. There is a different level of trust.
I teach a lot of workshops and provide references in my workshop notes. I'll occasionally reference an outstanding blog post, but always reference the magazine site articles.
Donna Maurer (http://maadmob.net/donna/blog/)
I think the reason Zeldman is popular is not because he did it first, it's because he can actually write. He produces quality content and has a unique voice. He's also very humble. And more importantly, he only writes when he has something to say. When did this become a popularity contest anyway?
Geoffrey (http://www.lookatlao.com)
I sorta zoned out after your comment on giving your content to another site potentially hurting your own. What, are you not asking for credit? What a selfish attitude.
Seth Thomas Rasmussen (http://sethrasmussen.com/)
Jesus aged christ....
I sure missed alot since yesterday. Just went from comment 15 to 30 just in the last 20 minutes.
I think the idea of creating a feed so other gallery sites can use the same content is stupid. And I encourage other galleries to use brand new sites that others haven't. But hell, if the content is good, use it. I don't care if all 4 sites use the last 3 designs that have come out. If they kick ass, then great and show the world.
This isn't a "whose dick is biggest" contest. The galleries, IMHO, are great resources for people to gain better knowledge in webdesign/ information architecture, development, etc...
What if someone only visits the Vault. What if someone only visits CSS Beauty. Maybe they don't feel like going to 3 other gallery sites.
So I don't have a problem if all 4 sites share similar content or some of the latest submissions. A feed certainly SHOULDN'T be used, but just because there is some submission overlay going on is not a big deal in my book.
m 2 cents.
Bryan (http://www.juicedthoughts.com)
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#1
You got the point!
It's just about growing twins sites in the web, my advice is simple, if the site is just like many more, just leave it or use it as your personal playground.
Jose Silva (http://josesilva.portaltm.com)