October 04, 2004 | View Comments (45) | Category: Our Thoughts
Summary: Why there aren't enough independent thinkers around and why people should stop complaining about their sites not being noticed.
This may sound awkward once you are done reading this article, but the inspiration comes from Dave Shea and Molly Holzschlag announcing the 2005 release of their Zen Garden book. I will go into further detail about why this occurred in a bit, but I do ask that you read the article and actually think about what I am saying before you respond if you decide to respond at all. Also it is quite lengthy so I am sure most of you won't even finish it, but I think it will be worth your time.
Have you ever been in a discussion with someone that was just so fascinating that time whisked by and you didn't even notice? The fact that the discussion grabbed a hold of you intellectually is just one of those experiences that doesn't seem to happen enough online. Granted online communication can not match face-to-face talk, but it could be better. What we seem to have now (and this goes double-time) for our community is conversations with a bunch of sheep and a couple of sheep herders.
Cliques were one of those matters in life that were supposed to be left behind once you graduated from high school, but they still exist here on the web. You may think that the “A-Listers” (I know many of you hate that term) have their own clique, but in reality the clique is formed by the people who make the comments. Many of these people envision that if they say the right things to the right people then maybe they can join in on the “in-crowd”. If you don't believe me then read some of the comments in this post where Molly announces the Zen Garden Book.
Now if you read both Molly's entry and Dave's entry you will find that neither one of them tell you what the content is within the book. All that is simply shown is a cover of a book. Now I get excited over covers many times, but not once have I ever thought about buying a book or even proclaiming how great the book will be before it has been released, much less read by me. I could be an exception in this crazy world, but that is just how I work.
In any case let's look at some of the comments:
- I can't hardly wait.
- I'm going to add that one to the stack of web books I'm already reading.
- I know that any collaboration between you and Dave is bound to end up being excellent...
To be honest my initial thoughts when reading the announcement were more along the lines of:
Shit, not another CSS book that everyone is going to run around praising just because it was done by one of the members of the community.
Just call me cynical.
Molly comes in later and explains the book's content:
Dave and I are taking 36 designs from the CSS Zen Garden site and using them to describe various aspects of contemporary web design. Of course, much of this centers around CSS, but not entirely as we cover a range of topics: Design, Typography, Imagery, Special Effects and so on.
Now there is something to be interested in. The world doesn't need another CSS book unless it somehow becomes the definitive guide oo CSS books. The world doesn't need another HTML/XHTML book either. Especially one that tells you how to use tables (they have their purpose), frames (they have their purpose), or embed midi files into a page.
I find that most books are for beginner's and people who don't keep track of what the community does so it always surprises me to see everyone saying how that bought this book or that book, but never mention how they got anything new from it.
Don't think that I am trying to pick on Dave or Molly because they did nothing wrong here. They just posted an image of a book. It's the people that comment about a book and how grand it will be without any knowledge of what it is that leaves me dumbfounded. It's these types of conversations that make you want to get rid of comments on a site. People just trying to say the right thing to the right people I guess...
Now I would be a hypocrite if I didn't admit that I haven't posted similar comments like this myself in the past. I probably still fall into that mode today, but I find more and more that if I can't leave a worthwhile comment I won't leave one at all.
We look up to these people for good reason because they have accomplished wonderful things, but once we lower our thoughts to simply saying the right things and stop taking the time to actually think what we are going to say then we will never have our own path laid out for us. I could sit and wonder why 37signals, Zeldman, Cederholm, and Shea are getting book deals and sit in awe and wonder why I can't do something like that or I could actually do it. Here is what I am considering:
Instead of linking to the 5-6 conversations that persist around this topic I will just link you to Shelley Powers' entry, This is Wrong on Oh So Many Levels. Also checkout the trackbacks and comments for an interesting discussion. Here is my favorite and the thesis behind this section:
The bottom line is that a lot of bloggers benefitted from a first-mover advantage and others have had the good fortune of becoming hubs for web activity. Still, none of the top bloggers and none of the best bloggers got into the game to be popular. The sites I love share amaizing insights on a consistent basis. You can�t fake the funk.
Whether you believe it or not you want traffic to your site. I know everyone likes to say that they only write for themselves, but if you were truly just writing for yourself and could care less whether anybody else was reading it then you probably would just keep a journal notebook around. Maybe you don't want 3,000 people visiting your daily, but to have someone come by and read your content and post a comment is very gratifying. This is why you want traffic.
Getting that traffic has been discussed here on Whitespace and at Big Money Tips. Scoble and Biz Stone cover ways to get people to go to your site which really is not hard at all. The hard part is keeping the people coming back. Only one thing can do that and you already know what it is (*cough*content*cough*). The problem though is that too many entries read like too many comments on a site. Not enough original thought is put into them.
Let's observe one of Mr. Stone's tips:
People will come back daily to read your fresh new work but spare them the one thousand word diatribes. Strive for succinct posts that pump pertinent new information into the blogosphere and move on. Keep it short and sweet so visitors can pop in, read up, and click on. Think of you blog as a cumulative effect. This doesn't mean you should never practice some long form writing now and then, it's just something to keep in mind.
This works for certain sites that offer a large number of updates daily/weekly (eg. Gizmodo and Engadget), but not all sites post at that frequency. If your site if focused on your ideas then nothing is wrong with a long thought-provoking post just as long as every word is need to make the point. Some would argue that John Gruber's are too long, but I think they fit the bill perfectly and he doesn't seem to have a problem with traffic.
Getting linked by other sites isn't a matter of posting frequenly or succinctly, it's a matter of creating content that people wish to link to. Zeldman puts thought into his entries (or it may be effortless for him now) and it shows. (Controversial material starts here) Scoble seems to just throw the content in the textbox and press publish. Both are popular sites (Zeldman being the more popular it seems), but I definitely get more enjoyment from Zeldman's post than Scoble's whether they touch on design or not.
What makes matters worse is when Scoble writes an entry on why Zeldman gets linked less and goes as far as to offer a thesis yet no justification. I have no interest in defending Zeldman because 1) he is a grown man who can do it on his own and 2) the thesis itself is so ridiculous that you have to laugh and wonder what world Scoble lives in.
Here's my thesis: his RSS sucks. It isn't full text. I unsubscribed.
If that is the original thought that Scoble comes up with then I am even less inclined to subscribe to his feed whether they are full-text or not (I have no fear of Scoble since I do not have full-text feeds so he probably won't even read this far and he got his link which is all he cares about :-). Just to be smartass I will offer my thesis of Scoble:
If Scoble were to start blogging today and he didn't work at Microsoft, he wouldn't even be close to where he is now in traffic or popularity because his content isn't worth linking to.
(End of controversial material)
Have you ever wondered why some people don't have comments open on their site? I am sure a big part of it has to do with spam, but the major reason is because most comments left by people aren't worth reading. If you release a new design out in the world why should you open comments on it when you know all you will get are comments by people saying “It's great” or &It sucks”?
We don't justify and backup what we say as much as we should. There has never been a law against voicing our opinions, but doing so without reason should be a crime. Many times we seem to forget that we all do not have the same likes and dislikes (you may love Scoble's site for the content for example) and try to force our opinions upon others.
Linux advocates have this problem along with Mac Heads. Nothing wrong with liking your platform, but understand that it isn't for everbody. If you want to try and get people to switch then offer them the reasoning behind why you like it and maybe they will like it as well. If there is a design in the Vault that you don't like explain what you would change. If there is one you do like why not tell us why?
Some people advocate Web Standards simply because the next guy does. They have no reason why they are doing it and when it comes time to explain the positives and negatives they don't have much to say.
I wish more women commented on my sites because they seem to leave their egos at home. Most guys, to put it bluntly, are just fragile assholes. Disagree with them and all hell breaks loose. You are either a sheep or a troll to most site owners. It's fun being neither.
People will read this and might think who the hell am I to write such stuff. My design is the epitome of undesign. My designs are so dull in fact that I have come to call myself the “Undesigner” in the web community. Why can't you just read it and think about if what I say is true? Does your ego prevent you from even attempting to think that someone else might be right about something?
I have an ego that is probably 10x the size of anyone who reads this site (Fantasy Football League Members can confirm that statement). My design ego isn't as big, but I do think I design better than 1%. There is always a site out there where you look at and know that you could do so much better than. It's your ego talking. The problem with that damn ego is that it causes jealousy.
Jealousy doesn't like to see other people become successful. Jealousy likes to think that it can do better than everyone else at everything. No questions ask. When you go to a site and enter a discussion leave the jealousy at home. Bring the ego, but also bring your ears because sometimes you don't like to listen.
Too many people try to be like someone else. When will the next Bowman or Inman show up? I don't care because I am not looking for the next one. I am looking for the next original. I have a plethora of RSS feeds in my reader, but there are only a handful of sites that I will visit without even checking the feed. Those are the original thinkers and the ones who when I read their words I really do feel like I am getting to know the person.
If you want a handbook on how to get on all the Big Guy's Blogrolls then I can create one and sell it too your for $999.95. We worry too much whether or not so and so is linking to us. If you look at the blogrolls of the big people in the community, on many of them you will find that this site does not exist, yet for some reason people like to think I am popular. Cederholm had me on his blogroll once, but I did a critique on Zeldman's Orange design and was promptly removed (and no I don't hold any grudge against him so don't make a big thing out of it).
Maybe I am too honest. Maybe my assholism comes out too much in my writings. Maybe my content just sucks. Maybe I can't design my way out of a coloring book. If all the above are true I don't let it bother me because when I am done writing I know that whether I am right or wrong, it was me who wrote it and not someone following a formula to make it big.
There are plenty of smart people out there who do not write as much as they used to because they weren't getting anything back from their writing. I am not saying everyone wants praise and high-fives, but when all you get back are comments from people who wish to lash out at you, would you have the will to keep writing?
The funny thing concerning popularity and web traffic is that the less you worry about those issues and the more you focus on having fun writing content that people enjoy, the more popular you will become and your traffic will increase.
Although since I say great content should be linked you should read this and see that it is obviously a great piece of writing on my part and link to it and help make me big, which contradicts me saying that I didn't follow a formula. Go figure.
Oh, and don't forget to pre-order my book.
Trackback URL: http://9rules.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-tb.cgi/352
Here's me commenting on your comments about commenting. This is getting ridiculous.
seth (http://www.sethgreen.net/Display_Urls_When_Printing/)
Well to be honest I felt the rest of the entry kinda lost track from the summary. But I agree with you about reckless comments. I see on some sites same readers that react on every post: 'nice', 'great', etc. They always comment, barely useful comment and they are always one of the first 5 to comment.
Also if you have high traffic expect harsh comments. Some people play nice to get attention others lash out to get attention. It's human behavior, they should do a documentary about it on the Discovery.
Everybody has an ego and are jealous, it's what drives most of us to do better. That applies for everything in life. But it shouldn't be overdone.
Darice de Cuba (http://www.darice.org)
I don't think what you're talking about is any different from any other types of writing (maybe creating for that matter), but you are talking about two things -- the only luxury is that with a blog your feedback is instant -- but this isn't something anyone is going to escape.
I've read my writing in college classes and felt the urge to envoke bodily harm on my neighboring classmates with 'I thought it was fantastic..' or 'that blows...' -- the problem can be summed up in a famous quote by Winston Churchill:
'Take it back, it has no theme'
Boring entries, lame comments, are the exact same as that little note I have in my yearbook somewhere that says:
'Stay sweet, you're the greatest guy I know, have a fantastic summer!'
It has no theme. That's one. The other being the need to fit in, and that's obvious to see in this industry since Shea, Zeldman, simplebits have sold their names to a large upcoming group of web designers -- just like I wanted to be David Carson when I was in High school. Some of it's maturity, some of it's intellectual strength, some of it's just who people are. You aren't going to change that by pointing it out.
I think the same thing when I stroll by a coffee shop, see a long haired guy around a group of people ranting about Kurt Vonnegut with a copy of Jack Kerouac under his arm. Are they fantastic writers? Absolutely... but they sell it like their's no better, and I should be so lucky. These are the same people that have barely ever read outside their school lessons -- but they are also the same people trying to figure out exactly what their place is/personality is.
Getting back to web design, I was thinking about this when I've been hearing about the Web Standards conference in Sydney. I've never been to a conference/seminar I've liked. I went to the 'Advanced Photoshop' seminar hosted by Scott Kelly, and it was no where near advanced (nice 30 minutes on removing red eye) -- conferences are usually more of a way for the speakers to sell themselves and their products, by paying quite a bit of money to break into the field, when there's free material everywhere.
But, short in point, it'll never stop, it's always this way from print design, to web design, to writing - the medium has just changed, and it'll always be this way... and it doesn't end there, it goes from psychology to politics, to any other subject where you have idles and people who want on their coattails, and it's been a subject through the ages.
But you might have the first post I've heard it on a blog before. This subject has been discussed in books and in classes many times. Maybe you're just starting to feel like a professor does, since many people probably look at you for advice and insight.
Brady J. Frey (http://www.dotfive.com)
This motherfucker's carryin' on like he ain't got a care in the world. Who know? Maybe he don't. Maybe this fool's such a bad motherfucker, he don't got to worry about nothin', he just sit down, eat my Chinese, watch my TV.
- DREXL - True Romance
Sheep, hmmm... true.
Read Me, Link Me... true, yes true.
Comment Etiquette... yea, yea, definitely true.
Egos Are So Sexy... true, true, don't forget the ears, good point.
Understand Yourself... yup, definitely helps to try to understand yourself. But in doing so, you seem to try to understand others if not more than yourself. But, the world does need some more understanding individuals.
Jason Marble (http://www.afriendapart.com)
In some ways I can understand your theory behind the sheephearding comments. With me, it's gotten to the point where I hate reading a blog because of its affinity to attract the same sheep commenters. So, while I understand the Sheep mentality...I fail to understand it in the context of your examples. If one of my favorite bloggers (who blogs on topics I find really interesting) posted a simple entry showing me the cover of her book and giving me the title, i would think to myself, Oooh i can't wait to read it. I mean, they're my FAVORITE bogger for a REASON, right? Why wouldn't I think or say that? Clearly i enjoy their writing because I visit their site everyday, so why wouldn't I be excited and anticipate the release of a book they wrote?
I think maybe you're reading a little too much in to some of those comments.
i-popularity is weird. I actually had my current site and another blog site elsewhere that I ran at the same time. I wrote about similar topics but the approach in writing was different (even though I write with similar styles on both sites). Anyway, one site recieved twice as much traffic as the other, but the one with less traffic recieved twice as many comments as the other more-trafficked site. I'm still confused as to what went wrong there, but either way, I learned not to judge my sites by comments. Or traffic. Just write.
Ethel (http://luscious-and-uppity.com)
To be quite honest, I've got no clue what this post is about (you lost be about halfway though) but I do have something to say about "meaningless" comments and links.
And I want to comment because I feel sorry for Scrivs and his 1-3 fantasy football record. (nice win this week though!)
And I'm feeling ornery. So here goes:
Sometimes a comment or link is about showing someone you appreciate their work. Usually it's meaningless content-wise, but just giving someone a nod, or showing that you're interested in what they're doing is important.
Take Dave and Molly's book. It may not be that useful to me, but based on their past work I expect it to be good. As well, I've met them both and think they're good people. Talent + Friendship = link + comment showing support.
It's not all about getting links back. I know I'd never read a book Scrivs wrote, but I sure as heck link to it. :) Just kidding, of course I'd read it -- it'd have gambling, hookers and all sorts of dirty talk. Oh and Llamas.
Then again, what do I know, this comment could be meaningless because I didn't read the whole post. Talk about a 1000 word diatribe. :)
Keith (http://www.7nights.com/asterisk/)
Additional generic designer to designer compliment.
Yes, I agree heavily with what you said about comments. And even when people do back up their statements, they never do it to an extent that serves as evidence. The best example is, as you stated, a site redesign. Go to some of the big guys sites and find a post about a redesign, you will see stuff like:
Love the new design, it's blue!
Really? "I had no idea it was blue, all this time I thought I was working with BGR, not RGB." Or an even more smart ass comment would be "I had no idea it was blue, I am colorblind." Not to discriminate, but the chances of a colorblind designer are highly improbable.
Many people often times forget what the purpose of comments are. They are so straight to the point, that no other conversation can stem from it. Why do you think that on the comments field for weblogs you see a textarea rather than a text input? The big old textarea screams, go ahead fill me up, and if you need more room I will scroll for you.
Now to touch the egos thing. I have never seen you as having an ego that I would call out of proportion to that of what you should have. You do have some ego showing on 9rules.com, but I think what is stated is rightly justified.
1 man, 9 sites and counting...
And that one is not so much ego as it is the truth. It is truth with a bit of ego.
Not yet a country, but almost an empire
Okay, okay, I will give that one to your ego. However, I see comments on this site, and others as well, where the person commenting has a ego as big as my ability to make something small seem big. And I sift through, thinking maybe this person has the credentials to back up there huge ego, nope, not at all.
I have done nothing. I've done something, but I wouldn't count it as anything spectacular. Do I have a huge design ego? Yes, I think my half-assed work is just as good as some people giving it their all. I would never say it to them, but deep down I feel it. I think everyone has that feeling sometimes, I just have it a lot more than I should.
I have a huge ego, and most people would say I have no ego. I am humble about it, just because it is there doesn't mean that it shows. That's the problem I see most commonly, people walking around with their zippers down and their ego showing like everyone in the world wants to see it. Zip it back up buddy, because I've seen bigger.
Ryan Latham (http://www.unmatchedstyle.com)
I understand the point of the post, and also, don't be so quick to award Scrivs that Fantasy Football win quite yet. Andrei can get two big plays from Warfield and Scrivs is 0-4.
The point of the post to me is "Don't fall into the trap of a) giving A-Listers more credit than they deserve for anything, and b) wanting so badly to be an A-Lister yourself that you post or comment way too frequently around the blogosphere."
I agree with both of these sentiments and I also, of course, agree that Scoble's claim about full-text RSS feeds is the height of nonsense.
The advice I always give people about getting started in blogging (or anything else really) is that if you're doing it to be popular, you probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place. If you like to write, then write. If people enjoy your writing, they will subscribe to your feed. If they don't, they won't... and you'll still be fine because you like writing. Simple as that. Damn the audience.
Mike D. (http://www.mikeindustries.com)
offtopic>:
Ryan Latham.... but the chances of a colorblind designer are highly improbable.
I'm a colorblind Creative Director. If I'm not mistaken, the blogger Hicks Design is colorblind as well. Never trust your monitor, always go with the values, it's probably why I'm so good with targeting my print and monitor output:)
Brady J. Frey (http://www.dotfive.com)
I have to admit, my personal site doesn't have this commenting problem :) *chuckles under breath*
I get some great comments from some awesome people (i.e; Brady, Eric, etc...) who leave well thought out and detailed posts. Rarely do I get a one word answer or a comment that is just there to be there.
The backlast thing became apparent today over at Molly's blog, a guy named Dante or something. For some random reason, he tore at her effort at publishing a book. and basically said he wouldn't buy it or read it because she wasn't as interesting as the others and used (Boweman, Shea, etc...) as examples.
That was out of line because it came off like the guy never read one of her books before.
Me personally, I have never bought or read her books (unless I glanced at them in B & N) but I know she is well respected, especially often in conjuntion with Eric Meyer. Its one thing if the guy had read her previous work, or hell, gotten an advanced copy of her new book, but instead he voiced his opinions about why he won't buy it or read it with not much valid justification. To each his own. But like you said Paul, all her and Shea have is a cover. Thats it.
And I agree that praising the book before seeing it is stupid. But also knocking it down before seeing it is stupid. A good solid comment would be something like
Molly, I look forward to reading this book. I have always enjoyed your writing style and I have always enjoyed your previous books. Can't wait till it hits the stores
I won't pre-buy a book online. I just won't. I wait to see it in person and scan it before determining whether to buy it. I did this with Dan Cederholms book. I just saw it (1 copy) at Barnes and Noble the other night and I grabbed it and started reading it. I already knew most of the stuff in there, but there were examples that taught me some new information. Didn't have the money to buy it, but I would have. However, I could have ordered that sucker online like 5 months ago, or pre-ordered it, but I didn't know how much different it was going to be from Zeldmans.
On the Scoble example. I will be honest, the only reason, and I mean THE ONLY reason I ever visited his blog was his connection to Microsoft and that he had some input or connections with the developers of the IE browser. I think Feeddemon automatically subscribed to the BLOG category for Scoble when I installed it. So I always have to rightclick and choose "Mark as Read" just so it won't show numbers.
Yea, his theory blew.
On one hand, I think Zeldman doesn't write as much and I wish he did, but on the other, shit, I can't expect him to live his life on a computer or live his life on his blog. He does have other aspects of his life (i.e; new kid) that he worries about.
I will admit for myself, and Scrivs can backup this statement, but I have been the first poster on his site multiple times. I have been the first poster on most of his sites in the same day and within minutes of his posting.
Not trying to fit into a crowd, I just spend alot of time hitting REFRESH on Feeddemon and I have enjoyed Pauls writing for some time and usually I have something to say. So I won't put myself into the sheep category and I am definitly not a herder.
I also enjoy FRESH postings, not the posts that announce something that was announced on 25 other design blogs on the web. I am guilty of doing this, but most of my stuff is politcally motivated.
Anyways, I just wrote a novel so I will stop.
:)
Bryan (http://www.juicedthoughts.com)
This reminds me of an advisor I had in University who spent his time trying very hard to impress us, his supervisors and his peers instead of impressing everyone by trying very hard to do a great job of advising.
In the end, he failed to impress anyone.
Derek Featherstone (http://boxofchocolates.ca)
What a suprise I got when I clicked the link to this post from my news aggregator. [ego] You see, I was the one responsible for guiding the discussion at molly.com away from general butt-kissery. Scrivs, why did you have to leave my name out of the blockquote?! [/ego]
Clearly, I agree with you, Paul. And I don't think that there is a better concept for what you described than a flock of sheep. Every single one of those comments that preceeded mine, with the exception of "Dante", was basically "oh, Molly, I love you, I'll love your book, I have to have it!" That's all well and good, but didn't our parents teach us that you can't judge a book by its cover?
And the other thing that I wanted to mention that I loved was your comments on criticism: I hate that people say, more often than not, "I like that" or "I hate that". That's not constructive. You might as well save your breath and my time.
Which reminds me: look for my upcoming piece of journalism on criticism. I bet you'll love it!
Stu Schaff (http://www.devsyn.com)
Heee! I'm quoted. Be it for the wrong reason. I can't hardly wait for the book to release (though I never bought a book on this topic before, mind you) because I certainly like the writing of the both of them. I won't buy a book for its cover.
Further on... Your controversial material seems quite true. But that's not with everyone of them, luckily.
Rob Mientjes (http://www.zooibaai.nl/b/)
Like you, Paul, I wish there were more independent thinkers. You've hit several nails precisely on the head, and nicely summarized everything that kept me from adding comment capability to my site for a very long time.
When I finally did get around to setting things up to allow comments, I set up WordPress so it defaults to comments being disabled on new posts; thus, comments are only open when I make the conscious effort to do so. Why? Everything you just wrote.
Oh, and let me know when your book is getting ready for release. I'll buy it just to have that title on my book shelf.
Eric Meyer (http://www.meyerweb.com/)
Don't link me.
Buy my book: Everything I need to know about the corporate world I learned from studying feudal Europe.
Well said, Paul, you are always right.
~~~
I go through cycles in regard to my personal site. Sometimes I wish more people commented. Heck, sometimes I wish people actually visited. ;)
But most of the time, I use my blog as an outlet for thoughts and feelings. I try to write well. I leave comments on because I always want to offer the opportunity for feedback on what I have to say. And most of the time it's fine that I rarely get feedback.
It should be pretty obvious to anyone who has read my stuff that I actively do not ever want to be an a-lister. In the end, I am happy that my personal blog is up and running and receiving 33 hits a day. If that suddenly jumped to 33333 a day, that would be fine too.
I don't know if I am an independent thinker, but I am curious about the world (most people I work with are not), I think for myself, question authority, and I write. And that is enough for me.
I find that most books are for beginner's and people who don't keep track of what the community does so it always surprises me to see everyone saying how that bought this book or that book, but never mention how they got anything new from it.
What would be interesting is a blog that was by subscription where you could sign up with an a-lister from you industry (one that could write and share knowledge freely) and learn "masters" level skills through discussion and application of ideas.
Matthew Oliphant (http://usabilityworks.org)
"but the major reason is because most comments left by people aren't worth reading."
AMEN.
You know there is a strange connection between so called "authors" and "bloggers"...same type of person maybe some kind of same drive to be "accepted...?"
Almustafa El-Said
I hate to say it, but isn't the vast majority of this thread exactly what Scrivs is talking about...?
I'm not sure that's a bad thing, and I've got a different take on this than Scrivs. I do agree that many comments aren't worth reading and that there is an element of "sheepishness" on blogs. But at the same time, comments can really add value to a discussion if you are willing to look for gold in them.
Also, I hope people are taking this as a license to just get out there and be an ass. Thinking for yourself doesn't mean ripping every point in a post or taking a cynical, negative attitude toward everything.
In my mind this kind of comment is just as "sheepish" and just as useless, if not more so, than the "atta boy" comments.
Independent thought doesn't have to be critical, it doesn't have to be negative and it doesn't preclude repetition. I'd also hate for people to say, "well, such-and-such already said that, so I'm not going to comment."
Anyway, nice job for trying to shake things up Scrivs! You are soooo controversial! You bad boy. ;)
How's that for sheepish.
Keith (http://www.7nights.com/asterisk/)
Actually I would say these types of comments are exactly what I was talking about. I even mention in the writing that there is nothing wrong with saying positive things (the world isn't all negative), but I would like it done in more than just one word. I would like to hear why you agree with me and that is what people have done here.
I don't think you read the article thoroughly or maybe you missed some parts, but I am not asking anyone to go ahead and butcher a site or its writer, but to actually think about what is being said and see if you are agree or disagree. There are some people in this community that no matter what they write everyone will agree with them no matter how wrong they may be.
There is no reason for you to tell me how much value comments add to a site since we both know this :-)
The problem with writing an entry like this is because I know people will see it as being controversial when I don't think it should be at all. I just got frustrated about some things and wrote for my own selfish reasons. I like to visit sites and read engaging conversations (for example , the latest at DxF). So it was my greed that produced this entry. I want a better community for me :-)
Scrivs (http://9rules.com/)
I want a better community for me.
Well, that much is obvious. :)
Anyway, I think I understand your point. If you are going to agree use 10 words or more, right? Just kidding.
I'm not trying to knock you (at least not seriously) or your post. It's just that, well, I guess I don't understand. Maybe it's because I usually only comment when I've got something useful to add, but there are times when I just want to agree or whatever.
I don't see a problem with that. I like to get comments like that, it's nice to know people are of a same mind. I don't see this as kissing up usually. In fact, sometimes I'd rather get a two word agreement than a 2 paragraph comment that says pretty much the same thing.
It's the opposite that bothers me. The people who just dis a post, or comment or design just for the sake of doing so. I see way more of this than the meaningless kiss up.
Look, we've all got motivations for why we write, why we comment and why we bother being part of a community. Some want popularity, some want to make money, some want to garner links, some love to write, some want to defend their place in their world, some want to criticize, some want to complain and most do a little bit of everything.
It's all good. Not every post is worth linking or commenting on. Not every comment is worth reading. Maybe we violently agree, or maybe I missed the point of the post, but there is room for a ton of error here and expecting every word one rights to be well thought out, helpful and worth reading is silly.
Keith (http://www.7nights.com/asterisk/)
Brady - You're spot on about the 'no theme' comments lot's of people leave but, as Keith said, though it might be useless content wise but it's just a kind nod of approval. It adds buzz, linkage, just no content. Scroll past it, they're short comments by nature anyway.
As for the CSS Book; I'm allways carefull on buying webbooks as much of the contents can be found online anyway. In that respect the CSS book from Dave & Molly should be more informative as it deals with much more than just the design or code in webdesign. However, if it doesn't explain how all things (typography, composition, etc) relate to each other, it's probably better to buy seperate books anyway. (not trying to knock the book)
Actually, the only webbook that's in my possession is a Japanese book on CSS (the Stylesheet Stylebook via mezzoblue). The only reason being that I'm (well, my design) is featured in the book. Heck, I even got someone else to buy it for me!
My point being: Most webbooks don't add anything new to what's already been written, offline or online. Perticulary because most books focus certain technics, explain them a little and put the rest of css/html/js into the appendix. Also, they're written for beginners, I've yet to see a book/seminar to handle advanced issues properly.
AkaXakA (http://akaxaka.gameover.com)
I don't see a problem either with people saying that they agree with someone. You can do that and I have no issues. It's not like I get pissed when someone writes “I agree” and leaves it at that.
The comments in Molly's entry weren't the “I agree” type ones, but more of the “you rock and your book will surely rock so I am buying 10 copies no matter what” type variety. See the difference?
And if every post or comment was worth linking to then you wouldn't have any A-Listers around in the first place so then you would be in trouble Keith because everyone would write high quality content like you do on your site (*smooch smooch* :-). And yes it is silly to expect high quality everywhere, but then again it's silly not to expect some people to get a high off of dissing someone else's work or Scoble thinking that the whole world shoudl use full-text RSS.
So in the end you totally agree with what I am saying and I think by your 5th comment you will come to realize that so we can all just go back to watching me win more Fantasy games this weekend.
Scrivs (http://9rules.com/)
Ok, we agree then.
Except when it comes to the crazy idea you're going to win again any time soon. :)
Keith (http://www.7nights.com/asterisk/)
It could just be the heroin again, but I swear I posted a couple comments on this piece last nite that seem to have vanished... :\
Seth Thomas Rasmussen (http://sethrasmussen.com/)
Actually, now that I take a closer look... did you also significantly edit this piece from what was up last nite?
Seth Thomas Rasmussen (http://sethrasmussen.com/)
I didn't delete any comments or edit the post at all. It's definitely the heroine Seth because all your comments came on this entry. :-)
Scrivs (http://9rules.com/)
Excuse my last comment, I just had to take that bad joke off my chest.
Well now, *this* is a different point of view, somebody's being too honest for the blogging community, I guess Paul won't be getting traffic anymore, he should be "agreeing" with others!
To be honest, after reading this, I was speechless for a moment there, the only words that I could think of were "Great site Paul, keep up the good work", "Buy v1@gra" also came to mind, but I didn't think it would say much, would it?
Writers who worry about traffic shouldn't include themselves in this category, they should stick with the label "Bloggers", a term which I came to dislike. A blog isn't just another homepage where you post tons of your pet's pictures (in reverse chronological order), it isn't a place where you get much revenue from, it's the place where you can get your 5 seconds of fame, speak outloud, and criticize the "untouchables".
Independent Thought; that's the word. I read blogs mostly because they're written by individuals, whose most posts don't have secretly hidden advertisement messages. I, as a reader, come solely for content, I don't come to get my site linked to, I don't come to praise and bless the famous, I only come for content, for new things I can learn, ideas, inspiration; give me that, and you're on my top 10 list, I promise I won't bother you with my "sheepish" comments.
Sometimes it's the writer's responsibility to control the comments, not by deleting irrelevant ones, but by provoking relevant and thoughtful ones. Personally, I'm a fan of open endings (maybe because of watching too much David Lynch), not that I'm very good at it, but I always try to leave whatever I post either subject to discussion, or with an open ending, I try not to finalize with a certain conclusion unless it's a must.
If I follow what most bloggers advertise to promote my site, I'm probably going to fail, I don't comment on other blogs unless I really have something to say, it seems rather dull to simply agree or disagree, if all commenters simply do that, there would be no point of having open comments. If my site doesn't get a lot of comments, but I still get ones that are important, or have something interesting, or twist my point of view and give me a fresh look of what I just wrote, wouldn't I like that? To me, that's much more useful than having tons of any kind of comments, make it positive or negative.
Oh well, I guess we'll have to educate the commenters community too, maybe that's going to help us have more healthy content.
Rami Kayyali (http://www.ramikayyali.com)
Hmm...
And here everyone's going on about why and how we should be going on about things.
Thanks for bringing it up Scrivs - I recently took Zeldman off my blogroll, simply because I didn't really enjoy reading his stuff. But then, I read a few entries in other places referring to him, and thought "Damn, he must have some wisdom, let me put him back". And then I removed him again, because I realised it was just stupid reading something I didn't really want to...
My humble opinion ? We're very early in the evolution of a world of open, borderless discussion, and we just haven't gotten used to it yet. People have an innate desire to be heard, and to have this hearing acknowledged properly. "I'm speaking to the whole world, but no one's replying - what's wrong with me ?!"
We'll get there.
Martin (http://www.d2.co.za)
Rami brought up a good point:
Sometimes it's the writer's responsibility to control the comments...
If you think about it, making a post 'announcing' any type of new launch, product line, hairstyle, etc... you're going to get a bombardment of useless comments directed to critique the work, or open praise. Kinda' like art class in college where you had atleast one kid give you a great thorough critique of why he liked or disliked and then 20 kids in the back with the 'I don't know, it's just boring...' or an 'I think it's awesome'. Some people get it, some don't.
Reading these comments gave me a flash back of high school and a word I haven't heard in years. Poser. Maybe that's a Chicago word, but I've heard it around in other parts of the US I believe -- slang for follower, it fit the generation transition from old Rock to Alternative, when extreme sports started becoming... well, hip.
Brady J. Frey (http://www.dotfive.com)
Brady,
"Poser" is not exclusive to Chi-town, you elitist! You're a "poser" poser!
Paul,
Thanks for clearing things up for my silly head. I'm tired...
Seth Thomas Rasmussen (http://sethrasmussen.com/)
"Poser" is a common word among the skate scene everywhere Brady. It's just someone who wears all the brands but doesn't actually try to get on a skateboard him/herself. I think it's a pretty good term to go with for "sheep" commenters too.
As for the main reply to this post...90% of everything is crap. Unfortunately, this also includes blog posts, comments, and trackbacks. However, I'll gladly put up with 9 "I agree" slap-me-on-the-back comments for that one comment that provides honest and well-thought-out criticism of what I said, or even helps me view a topic in a way I hadn't thought of before.
Vinnie Garcia (http://blog.vinniegarcia.com)
Your arrogance is amazing (Sagitarius?)! How dare you compare the average reader/commenter to sheep. It seems like it is a little like hollywood types moaning about people asking for autographs. I mean come on...why complain about someone leaving a simple comment like "I agree" or "good work"? Not everyone is a great writer and can offer up mind expanding responses. Who are you to say that they shouldn't just leave a brief "I was here. I read your words and I liked them."
Simon Dvorak (http://www.simondvorak.com)
Fascinating comments about comments, folks. One thing I've never fully grasped is the "A-list" or "rockstar" mentality in the first place. This isn't something people set out to do for the most part. I can't speak for others, but in my case I'm a community-oriented person and it's truly not about ego-masturbation. If I can help one person do their job better, I'm happy. If I can make you laugh, or point you to a great resource, or spill my personal guts out and get support and kindness from my readers, that fulfills what I perceive to be my blog's purpose.
Certainly, there will always be individual wannabees out there - people who think that by getting strokes from a "known" individual they are somehow better people. That's a problem - if they don't have their own confidence, how on earth can knowing ME change that?
To clarify my point a bit: The motive of the writer does not always reflect the response of the reader.
Insofar as why Dave and I just posted the cover - it was meant as a total tease. The book is several months out, so more information will be forthcoming, naturally.
Finally, as for their being too many books out there, I have to disagree, and for a rather ironic reason: Anyone who is working with XHTML and CSS on a regular basis and has become educated on web standards, best practices and so forth - well guess what? You ARE THE ELITE! It's a big world out there - and a lot of hard working people are not Web professionals and don't have the exposure to the level we do, yet they require education and skills to do their jobs. I see it all the time, and c'mon, you can too - surf to most any commercial web site and you tell me if we've succeeded in getting the message to the masses. Nope, in my opinion, the work has just begun.
After a recent keynote I did for the EPA webmasters (there are 600 people working on epa.gov web sites, most of whom know little about standards and less about accessibility, which is sobering considering they have to comply with Section 508 - think about that) the organizer thanked me and told the audience "please be sure to stop and talk to Molly, she's very responsive to your questions" and I stopped and thought to myself "Why on earth would someone think I wouldn't be responsive?"
I'm an educator first. While the attention and support and love are all awesome by-products of this very cool industry I've found myself in, if at any moment the ego took over and it became about me and for me only, I'd no longer be effective, and that would just be sad.
I really like to think of the Web as a great equalizer, and for a long time it really looked as though it was. In the last few years, though, there's been a greater and greater separation - but who is doing that? The perceived "elite" or the ones doing the perceiving?
Molly E. Holzschlag (http://www.molly.com/)
Hmmm, if you read the entry and notice the comments the comments have nothing to do really with saying “I like what you do” or anything like that. As Keith and I discussed in the comments earlier, these are rewarding and help to bring smiles to our faces.
The comments referenced in the entry though are from people proclaiming how great something is without even witnessing it.
Please excuse my arrogance though. It does get in the way of everything I do. At least that is what my mom tells me.
Scrivs (http://9rules.com/)
Boy talk about being conflicted on whether to comment on a post or not! For the record - this is my first time here, and I found this site while searching for "CSS whitespace" on Google.
Let me just say I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. I have a quick story - and I hope nobody thinks that I'm trying to make myself seem like a "somebody/A-lister" by saying this, because quite frankly, I'm nobody - and I'm well aware of it. In fact, I prefer being nobody.
I had the opportunity this year via some odd networking to put a proposal together for Wrox press for yet another XHTML/Standards book. I spent some serious time putting a book proposal together - but I spent MORE time considering WHY should I write such a book.
I have enough knowledge on the subject to write a passable (at least) book for beginners. But why? What would it offer to the community at large that the books already published didn't?
I came to the realization that the answer was "nothing." So I contacted Wrox and said thanks but no thanks with my reasons, and the guy totally understood.
Even though I had the feeling the book was very doable/publishable from the conversations I had with Wrox, it made no sense to add another book to the existing stack on the subject. It would have been a nice ego boost, sure. It would have garnered me a certain amount of web traffic. I could add another line to my resume. Whippee. (I doubt it would have made me wealthy, so I didn't bother listing that.)
In the end it would have been a totally selfish thing to do for recognition and/or monetary gain. That just isn't a good enough reason to throw another stack of paper out there. I guess that goes for blog posts too in a way. We're all looking for that next Zeldman/Cederholm/Bowman that will teach us new things, instead of constantly chew the cud on the old.
My guess is that Molly and Dave's book will be good, based on what Molly said about it. But I agree, I'm not pre-ordering something I know nothing about - even if I do respect the authors. And I agree, let's look around for more sheepherders to learn from, and stop being "sheepherder groupies".
Now, quick, go to my site so my site statistics spike. Then mention my name in high profile blogs, and add me to your blogrolls! Feel free to send me money too.
P.S. I'm adding Whitespace to my blogroll. Poo on Paul if he doesn't like it! ;)
Tom (http://www.pixelmech.com)
At the risk of derailing this thread...
Molly, you are right that there are many commercial sites out there that still do not follow web standards, but I have to question how another CSS book or XHTML book will changes matters any if those books just reiterate what has already been said. Writing something new is one thing, but there are only so many ways you can explain how to implement a table in my opinion.
Now web design books are a different matter as there doesn't seem be enough quality ones that focus on quality design and its role on the web. This is what I am hoping your book focuses on.
I am not saying that someone should not write a book on CSS if they feel so inclined, hell I might write my own one day just for the experience, but to think that writing another XHTML book (or whatever) that doesn't say anything new from the other 80 that are covering the bookshelves I think is silly.
Tom: Great story and hell no I don't mind when people link to me :-)
Scrivs (http://9rules.com/)
Adding to that swaying topic -- though I've found reading books on Web design methods very useful, and I agree that there really aren't any good web design technique books... I still see it as an oxy moron to buy a book about web design. Sorta' the equivalent of when I do a website and the client would like a print out to see, instead of looking on his/her monitor.
I'll gladly pay 30+ dollars for the next Communication Arts edition, or a quality print design book -- but I'd much rather find an online blog that offers up these techniques, and possibly allows an ebook version for a price.
I consider my bookmarks just as much a library now as the physical books on my shelf -- just seems a step backwards to me...
Brady J. Frey (http://www.dotfive.com)
I know what you mean Scrivs but: -
"to think that writing another XHTML book (or whatever) that doesn't say anything new from the other 80 that are covering the bookshelves I think is silly."
Baaaahhh!! If Molly's or anybody's book is a little better written or perhaps more practical than what already exists, then newcomers to web design will welcome it even if professionals may not. But hopefully it will have something new we can all appreciate.
Peter 01010 (http://www.01010.org/)
For someone who apparently prides themselves on "independent thought", and is eager to pour scorn on those who would attempt to ingratiate themselves with the 'A-listers', it's amazing how quickly any new work by the so-called 'A-list' finds its way into the CSS Vault.
Andy Clarke works on the Disney store - Bam! it's in the vault the next day.
Dan Rubin redesigns Superfluous Banter - ditto.
Doug Bowman knocks out some templates and a logo for Mighty Goods - guess what? Yup...
Matthew Pennell (http://www.thewatchmakerproject.com/)
1) I think a large part of the behaviour that is being found to be so disturbing (and I agree that it is), results from the fact that conversation scales bad. I am sure a lot of you have read Clay Shirky's "A group is it's worst enemy", if you haven't than do:
http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html
The part that is so fitting to this situation is:
========
And, finally, you have to find a way to spare the group from scale. Scale alone kills conversations, because conversations require dense two-way conversations. In conversational contexts, Metcalfe's law is a drag. The fact that the amount of two-way connections you have to support goes up with the square of the users means that the density of conversation falls off very fast as the system scales even a little bit. You have to have some way to let users hang onto the less is more pattern, in order to keep associated with one another.
==========
I am sure that when the people writing and commenting on this way back before it "blew up", would also occasionaly post comments that in and of themselves weren't very enlightening and original, but it bothered nobody, because the medium was kind of new, and nice comments from people that you knew and where you could put the comment in context werre still nice to get, even if they didn't fit some standard. It was partly like a conversation at the bar or the bus-stop. It's also (and sometimes only) a social act.
But things that work well as part of a two-(3-4-)person conversation start to get very ridicoulus and annoying very fast, when the participating numbers increase. The problem is that people that are "new" to this do not realize this right away, I didn't either back when I was new to online-discussions (though I tend to be more of an introvert, so I assume [hope] I wasn't too bad;)).
That's what led me away from mailing-lists and to forums, and later away from forums and to wikis and weblogs, and now for a while I think I finally realized that it's a problem that is inherent when (more than just a few) people come together. And so I agree with Brady J. Frey (comment #4), that the problem is a general one which we are unlikely to escape from.
I want to finish this comment with a story I stumbled across earlier today, which I think can be (interpreted somewhat freely) applied to the topic at hand:
=====
Folklore notes a famous beauty named Xi Shi whose beauty was unrivaled in all of old China. Unluckily for Xi Shi, she also suffered horribly from an ailment of the heart and was often seen clutching her chest and wincing in pain with pinched brows. A neighborhood girl who did not know Xi Shi’s health condition misconstrued her wincing face and clutching bosoms for gestures worthy of imitating. So she began to walk about the village “aping the beauty” to ridicule and unfortunate results.
=======
(taken from www.alllooksame.com )
Sencer (http://www.sencer.de)
Interesting but long read.
This is in my opinion one of those posts where you start reading and halfway you're thinking: "are we there yet".
At the end, though, you're going: "hmmmm this guy may just have a point" (not necessarily about the whole post).
And just to think it all started by reading a book announcement (just to make a point that it's strange where we get our inspiration).
Benjamin (http://www.digital-transition.com)
I was just wondering if you've ever considered writing comments professionally. Scrutiny being what it is today, many folks would pay a few cents a word to simply avoid embarassment.
Perhaps you could set up a shopping cart with a few "canned" or pre-written comments good for any occasion. These could be reasonably priced at a set level.
Then offer a "custom comment" feature which allows your client to send you text of the post they would like to comment on and either a checkbox which allows you to make a response on your own without client input, or a text-area where your client can express his/her thoughts for you to consider when making your comments.
Just a thought.
Keith Burgin (http://www.burgindesign.com)
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