May 23, 2004 | View Comments (54) | Category: Our Thoughts
Summary: Can we consider it the truth if we only say half of it?
Blogs are about open communication. They are about providing a human voice. In the world offline (yes, such a world exists) we are confronted with people who say one thing, but you know they mean another. I feel the same thing happens in our community.
Everyone is quick with the praise. Someone launches a new site and it is linked to by one large figure or another and then you suddenly see thousands of these links popup all over the place describing how wonderful a site is. Even worse is when top figures that hold great esteem in the community, for one reason or another, launch a site and just because it came from that one person it is already deemed “beautiful” or whatever other niceities you wish to throw there way.
I can understand not saying something negative about a design because that is frowned upon by this community. A lot of designers fear critiques of their work. They don't like to hear that their design isn't that good. Understandable. Egos can be fragile things to deal with. It's the ones that tell me to openly critique them so that they can get a different perspective on things that I respect.
It doesn't even seem like we have open communication anymore. It just seems to be PR work for everyone. I have said things that were completely wrong before, but I did't realize they were wrong until someone told me and explained to me why. I am man enough to say I am sorry. I am man enough to admit that all my personal designs pale in comparison to others that I respect.
Maybe I am developing issues with how we communicate because in a sense it is hurting this little design world. All the praise without constructive criticism causes too many heroes to be formed. Too many people begin to emulate others. Not enough original thinking occurs. Not enough questions are asked. Look at what happened when Andy decided to play devil's advocate and say that minimal table use is okay sometimes. Situation got worse when Shea chimed in. All the comments were mostly of agreement with very little questioning. Thankfully other bloggers responded and Shea even posted a clarification. Questions are good. Believing and taking to heart what everyone says is bad.
I am not saying people should be mean or negative. Far from it. I just don't think everything should be “[blank] has just come out with a site and even though I haven't seen it or really know the guy I know the site rocks!” We can go head to head with each other if it just involves theories and practices, but touching somebody's design is a no-no. Why? I guess because maybe it leaves our own designs open for critique and questioning...
...which should be a good thing.
Ask any of the people who speak with me over IM and they will tell you that you get a different side of me. Hell, you get a different side to everyone over IM it seems.
SixApart introduces a new licensing scheme and you really see open communication go to work. I guess its easier to speak your mind to companies than it is to individuals.
We have setup unspoken rules in the community. Never say anything bad about someone who is respected. Never criticize or question the choices others make. Maybe there is nothing to question and simple statements such as “it's beautiful” are the truth.
Andrei, Keith, Greg, Didier, and Cameron (no links needed, right guys :-) did an article on a guru (again no link needed ;-) and what made the article powerful was that they put their theory into practice. They didn't just say something and end the entry. They said it and did it. Now the same thing could work for this entry. I could say some things that have been on my mind for a while. Some things that would piss off a lot of people. I am no great designer, but I am a fan of great design. It can be easily assumed that I am not even a designer at all. So you may think I have no room to talk, but since when wasn't someone entitled to their opinion?
So here I go. I feel like I am looking over the edge of cliff with two choices: 1) jump or 2) turn back and just keep all my thoughts in private or IM conversations. Well since we only have one life (well most of us) let's jump.
I just don't understand what the big deal is about this site. It's a nice site for sure, but because Shea designed it does it make it the greatest thing on the planet like some people are making it out to be? Actually my biggest concern is the copy. I don't see Dave like I see the other 12,034 design firms, so I don't think his copy should sound like the rest of them either. With respects to Shea he didn't make a big deal of the site and he isn't one to go beating his chest around proclaiming his greatness. As I noted in the vault entry the red background screams at me. And yes I am on a CRT. Nice site, I just wouldn't describe it as “probably the best entry thus far”.
I know Shea doesn't like to see critiques in public and it is not meant to be. It's more of a question to everyone out there as to why they believe the site is so great.
I hate to use 2 columns on my sites because I always have this feeling that Dan patented that layout. I don't think of that as a good thing. I think Dan excels at creating the little widgets, but its the layouts that get to me. The last couple of layouts I have seen from him I kind of get a “damn, there it is again” type feeling. Maybe the layout was needed for each site. Maybe it helped him stay within budget. I don't know.
Maybe I am just a little disturbed because a lot the sites I get for the Vault are Cederholm clones. This might even be a testament to his design. If it ain't broke...
Admittedly, the blogosphere has placed so much hype and these guys and others that living up to any design is damn near impossible. These two guys make more money than I do so they shouldn't care what I have to say about their sites. They get clients and they are successful. That's where I tip my hat to them. Nuff said.
Haha, ummmm, next!
First no I do not think I should be on the list and the only reason I bring it up is because this how many people view the blogosphere. If I were to say the name Donna Driscoll, would you recognize the name immediately? She is Andrei's wife and she is at #19. I really have nothing but nice things to say concerning her, however why is she on the list? Why are Kottke, Meyer, and Gruber on the list? Put Sam in there if you want thoughts on design. Take Rubin out (sorry my friend) because he just doesn't seem to exist anymore. The rest are solid choices.
Overrated. Without the CSS Vault 80% of you probably wouldn't even know I exist. My designs for my personal sites are simple. That's what I do. Would I add them in the Vault. Nope. I enjoy design, but I enjoy other aspects of the web more and I think that it shows. Maybe I get a fair amount of people to come here because all I do is ”dog“ people. Fair enough. I would like to see more honesty in other blogs. Will it happen? Probably not.
At this moment I feel that there is one designer in the CSS world that is above and beyond everyone else, but we can save that for another time.
I am part of a company that is trying to show organizations how open communication can be beneficial. Largely all we do as a community form alliances. If I link to you and say something nice then I am cool. If I say something that you deem as negative we are no longer “friends”.
So challenge my designs. Challenge my content. Do so reasonably and with some intelligence so I can get something out of it. If you wish to praise then continue to do so, but don't do it just to be nice or because everyone else does so. If you wanna catch me on AIM, sometimes you can find me under boyz2playaz.
For the 5 people who decide to come back tomorrow, thanks. I tried my best to go about this the right way.
Trackback URL: http://9rules.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-tb.cgi/248
Yeah, the CSS Vault is going under a reworking as I speak. It is a Cederholm clone...*hangs head*
Scrivs (http://businesslogs.com)
Well, imitation is the sincerest form of... uh, plagiarism, actually, but then, I've seen designs similar to that on much older table based stuff, too... just with graphics instead of text for the links and so on. :-)
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Excellent, excellent article.
Um, I mean, "huh, just cos he's on Cameron's list he thinks he's better than the rest of us..."
Sometimes it does seem like too much of a blogroll circle-jerk; perhaps one explanation is that those on the outside would like more than anything to be on the inside, so they're sure as hell not going to risk shooting their mouths off about Shea or Zeldman. You're in somewhat of a privileged position, being "in the gang".
Matt Pennell (http://thewatchmakerproject.blogspot.com/)
Scrivs, you raise some interesting points here. I think there are a few things you touch on that are really important. First, people are are afraid of criticism, myself among them. It is really hard to deal with open and honest critiques of your work. The first reaction is either to hit back with a nasty comment of your own or to rapidly justify everything that was criticized. That leaves little energy for absorbing and learning from the feedback you get. Secondly, some folks, again I fall into this group, are still in the shut-up-and-learn-from-others mode that leaves us less inclined to redesign someone else's site (ala Design Eye) or to criticize those we are learning from like Shea, Zeldman, or Cameron (Odd how we sometimes pick the first name rather than the last).
Anyhow, my hope is that as more people spend time getting involved in the online community and they gain more confidence in their abilities we will see more constructive criticism and reworking of bad designs. Having a community of designers that you respect, even if you don't know them personally, to critique your work can be really valuable once you learn to bite your tongue and take it.
Kevin (http://www.infinitewebdesign.com/mt/)
It doesn't make any sense to be in this industry and have a fear of criticism. Criticism is the best thing for any designer. If you dont recognize that, if you fear that, then what improvments on your abilities do you expect to make?
Too many masters, not enough students? No. That's hardly the case.
There are few other designers that I look up to and am impressed with. There's no need for me to name any names. There's no need, honestly, for me to pay most of them much attention at all. Because it doesn't make any sense to be in this industry and waste my time focusing on other designers when I could be focusing my time on myself and my clients.
Hard Work and Talent go noticed, regardless of hype. It is easy to determine if someone is just more noise in this community or if they're truly a signal.
eris (http://www.erisfree.com)
I'll tell you what I hate. This constant talk of a "community". There is no community. What is this web obsession with gathering people into clucking flocks? Do we say a "community" of postal workers? A "community" of bus drivers? A "community" of telephonists? No. Yet all I hear everywhere is this constant make-believe about the "web design community". And little-Johnny web designers looking up to big-Daddy web designers. It's pathetic! I hope people stop it real soon. As for "household name" web designers, god can't people look beyond bloody web design for just one moment? Are some people's lives so small they have no other interests? Okay, so people talk about web design here, but you must forgive me for thinking that some people talk about web design all day every day to anyone who'll listen. I thank my lucky stars I don't have high aspirations in the field.
Joel (http://biroco.com/)
Well since I am not a postal worker or bus driver I have no idea what they consider a group of themselves. A community is something where a group of people help each other out with common interests. Call it an interest group, a club, a society, whatever, but it does exists. Being part of it is merely an option.
With regards to people looking up to "big-Daddy" web designers you only prove my point in that not enough people question the bigger types.
Now about only talking about design, well this is a design blog so for me it only seemed right. Guess I was wrong. I am sure there are some people who talk about this stuff everyday and they should explore other activities, but really who I am to tell other's how to lead their lives?
Scrivs (http://businesslogs.com)
Constructive criticism is an essential part of every discipline. In many circles, it is *the* driving force behind progress (i.e. academia). While I don't think web design is devoid of criticism, it does seem like the "A Listers" are immune from it. Is it because their designs are so overwhelmingly good that we can't think of anything critical to say? Or is it because we fear retribution, and alienation? Or is it because we don't think our criticism would be heard or considered useful by the target?
I just wrote a critique of my colleague's redesign that offers some criticism on a few aspects, but also offers praise. In part, my criticism prodded him to improve upon his site.
I like to think about it like this. If I'm not open to criticism, then I cannot benefit from what others are saying. People will remain critical of my work whether I'm listening or not; the only way I can improve is by either recognizing my own shortcomings, or be being told them.
It should be common practice for all designers to solicit criticism from a wide variety of people. In doing so, you will advance your skills and knowledge at a pace unmatched by those that do not.
Tom Werner (http://www.mojombo.com)
This keeps getting play in different emanations of he same idea. Ranging from "Who's your guru, baby!" to "Why is it exactly that these people are seen as gods even when they design something mediocre."
One side of the spectrum gets too much criticism largely because gurus are big, easy targets. And most of the criticism is stuff that has been said before. Even the Design Eye redo is all stuff that has been said of Yakob before. Better that they put it all into practice, and yeah it looked a lot better, but so what? Easy target: it's a Web site (informational as opposed to application) and it is updated once a week. I still don't understand why they continue to give him so much attention.
The second part spectrum gets too little criticism. I mean there are arts and entertainment critics who get paid a lot of money for their cheers and jeers, why is it so absent on the Web? I don't think people need to be take down just to take them down, but some of the designs I have seen of late from some of those listed in the main post just make me go, "And...?" Even the ones with decent content.
I think though, that many of the people listed above would be the first to say that they make bad design decisions a lot. But they keep going and strive to get better. And I think it is the striving that is important. It's okay to rest on your laurels for a weekend, but you still have to work to come up with a better solution next time. And since each time is different, that makes it difficult.
BTW, even though I am never mentioned in the usual suspects lists, like the one above, I welcome constructive criticism. Take a look at my site, let me know. No Scrivs, I am not just trying to boost my pathetic hit rate. :P
Matthew Oliphant (http://usabilityworks.typepad.com)
"I can understand not saying something negative about a design because that is frowned upon by this community. A lot of designers fear critiques of their work."
No, you don't understand. It's not fear, at least for me, anyway.
The end product you see is so much more than just a design. It's usually a collabortaive effort bewteen clients and developers and copywriters and designers. And in the end there is the budget, always the mighty currency unit.
Without knowing the ins and outs of the project, it can be tough. (yeah - I'm ashamed of a couple of comments that I made in the site comments of the vault that make me seem like a hypocrite here).
I *do* agree wuth you that there is a lot of congratulatory back-slapping that happens that leaves me wondering 'wtf'? But that's just my little opinion.
Mike P. (http://www.fiftyfoureleven.com/sandbox/weblog/)
The reason that certain people are the "A-listers" is because of their talent and/or business sense. Some have loads of talent, some have loads of business sense and land huge projects, and some have both. But not many. A lot of either one will get you up in the spotlight, it's as simple as that.
Mike (http://phark.typepad.com)
This was a much-needed post, and I was wondering when I would finally see something like this. Sure, Shea, Cederholm, et. al. are great designers, but they are not the be-all and end-all of design. I think it's great that you pointed out that these people should not be completely worshipped as "truth-telling gods" of design- because I get the sense that a lot of people do not question - or openly question - what these men say.
I also have a guess at who the mentioned "css designer is", but of course, you're saving that for another time. :)
francey (http://www.francey.org)
Reasons not to criticise:
Not enough hours in a day.
Leads to extra involvement and extra time.
It's only an opinion at the end of the day and they tend to get changed regularly.
As Kevin said, it is often best to shut up and learn.
To be really useful a criticism has to be a constructive critique and are we really in a position to critique those "gurus"?
FWIW, I think the left hand side of your right hand column would look better with all the text in a straight line rather than arrows and text in alignment. Is that just my opinion or do others think so too? Just my 2p.
Peter
"The problem with the world is that most people would rather be ruined by praise than saved by criticism." (Can't remember who said that, but I think it's nifty.)
Garrett Dimon (http://www.yourtotalsite.com)
Peter: Damn man now you got me looking at the right column. It has no symmetry. Back to the drawing board...
Scrivs (http://businesslogs.com)
Love your article Paul. Thank you. If you only had a clue of how big of a problem you are describing. If your business can actually get this through to organizations, it sounds like it will be very successful.
First, I agree. When I was first asking people about my site, which I am 90 percent done with, all I get is "that looks really great." What I want is, "are you kidding me with that border?" or "the content needs work" or at least some criticism.
I think it is hard to criticize people though when you know how talented they are. Seriously, it just feels wrong walking up to you or Shea and giving your opinion. I have tried to find the balance in telling people both, what I like and what I don't. It is a problem though. People need to learn to place honesty over timidity.
So lets be honest. Your new design of whitespace sucks. I LOVE your content. I come here daily, if not more and love reading everything you have to say as well as all the comments your readers put through. I didn't even know you were the author of the CSS vault until 3 or 4 months after I had already been religiously reading your site. I know you as "Paul Scrivens, you know?, the whitespace guy... I think he also did some CSS site too." Anyway, I loved your old design. When you first went to redesign it, my first question was "why?"
So the specifics, I am not sure what it is about the new site. I know at first it was the overly large text, but that has since been fixed, but overall the design just rubs me the wrong way. The links are so close to the top of my windows that they feel like they are hugging it and out of the way. I remember the first time I went to go somewhere else after the redesign, I actually HAD to look for the navigation (something I have never had to do with the old site).
In my mind, you went from simple and beautiful to simple and cluttered (if that is possible). To me there is just not enough separation of all the elements anymore. The 1px borders really used to add a lot (more than I even realized until they were gone).
And what is with this? I am not sure if that is a bug, or was meant to be like that, but it looks inconsistent and out of place.
Everything on the old side just seemed to have a good seperation and everything now is just so thrown together. The sidebar is tremendously confusing on the eyes. You have what, 3 different sizes of type in there, all black?
In the comments preview area, the link to the author's website never works, just returns a "no id" error. Also, I can't stand how the comment preview looks nothing like what the comment will actually look like in the site. At least make it the same width maybe so people can get an idea of what their copy will look like. That is what a preview is for isn't it?
This is just all my own opinion, and it could be entirely based on taste, but hey, at least you cannot accuse me of being dishonest.
This is what I would love for someone to do with mine though. Take it apart. Tell me what sucks, what can be improved and what are the strong points that work.
Please don't consider me an ass, because I really do respect you and your work, more than this post makes clear, but I will save that for another post.
P.S. Who is this 'one good' CSS designer that you speak of?
Josh Bryant (http://www.thescenicroute.org/weblog/)
> For the 5 people who decide to come back tomorrow, thanks.
You really do worry too much :)
Lea de Groot (http://elysiansystems.com/)
Hey Josh, that is how it should be done. Thanks for the feedback. Well everything but the “Your new design of whitespace sucks”. I could have gone without the “sucks” part, but I'll survive :-).
And to quickly answer your question on why go about a redesign, what designer is ever just happy with one design?
Lea: Heh, if you only knew.
Scrivs (http://businesslogs.com)
Lol. Sorry about the sucks part. I think it needed to be, "Your redesign of whitespace sucks in comparison to the way things were before."
The design is great, and doesn't suck. I really don't talk like that, especially to someone whose position on issues and talent I respect so much, but I just had to be crass and get a good word in there that would jump out at you and grab you into the post. I'll rewrite it when I succeed at becoming and english major (read: never) but for now, sucks will have to do.
In all seriousness, you site is still miles ahead of many and still incorporates what I see "whitespace" as, so I am sorry about eh offensive remarks, don't hate me for it. It was supposed to be all in good fun. Guess it sounds harsh over the internet, I think it would have been better read face to face over a beer or something. :\
I know the question of "why redesign" was a little unfair. I had only been staring at it for 3 months and was still getting used to all the little parts that made the site so cool, but you had had to stare at it for (insert amount of time here) which I know can get boring to anyone. I know my site is not even done and I am already bored with it and ready for a change.
I think there is a time however when a designer has to realize when they did something right, and changing it can be breaking it, not improving it. Also, this does not apply to your site, but I see many redesigns veer too far off from the original, totally erasing any brand that they had established over time before.
Its all a tricky thing I guess. And now onto a more positive note.
Being honest does include the positive stuff also, so just to let you know, I really do appreciate and have a high respect for your minimal-simplistic style. If I was a company and didn't know how to design websites, I would surely hire you. Your way of letting the content speak for itself is unique and hard to find in the "design" world.
Cheers Paul
Josh Bryant (http://www.thescenicroute.org/weblog/)
Hey Josh, no worries man. I read your comment and understood where you were coming from. Just that people might take my post the wrong way and start running around screaming how everyone's site “sucks” when that is not the way to go about it only because many people will that word so seriously.
But again, I'm a grown kid ;-) and understand that everyone is entitled to their opinion. Thanks for the kind words.
With that said some tweaks to the color scheme on this site and then its off to brand the rest.
Scrivs (http://businesslogs.com)
Maybe you weren't before, but with this post you just made yourself into one of the 20 most influential.
This is going to hit a lot of people hard.
And that's a good thing.
James at Practical CSS (http://www.practicalcss.com)
1. Influential blogger writes that people are afraid to criticise influential bloggers.
2. Everyone agrees with him.
Ho hum...
Matt Pennell (http://thewatchmakerproject.blogspot.com/)
Paul, thank you for the post. You are lucid and thoughtful as usually. A bit offtop, though (while Josh has touched upon your current design)...
I understand that one design can't suit all browsers and their corresponding skins ever, but look at this (47 kb). Your top navigation is completely integrated into the browser's interface. And grey is very popular interface color for major browsers in the market.
Every time I come to this place (almost daily, actually) I'm a bit disoriented by your top navigation.
Andrei Smirnov (http://www.id-as.com)
Andrei - Le Breeze for FireFox, a nice theme indeed :) I use it myself. But I think it's actually a nice effect the way the site's navigation blends with the browser controls. Gives me a nice feeling of unity.
Lucian S.
Well, Paul or Lucian, I'm not sure...
If the blending was intended from the start, then the effect does exist.
I wanted to say only that for me this is a disorienting element of this site's IA.
Andrei Smirnov (http://www.id-as.com)
With fear of purporting the very thing you're suggesting we avoid... great write-up, Scrivs. I've had similar thoughts at times that commenting has become a big PR deal, rather than an honest critique of one's work and opinions. And while we're on the topic of reworks based on "negative" feedback, I've got a rework for the 80/20 planned for sometime in June or July.
Cameron Moll (http://www.cameronmoll.com)
Scrivs,
I dig the post. I think people sometimes think that if we criticize someone's design then we dislike the guy in general.
That's not true. Zeldman is the perfect example. I was not a big fan of the peach color, or the big 'ol orange header with the Asian woman, but I surely read his book and I surely think that based on his real-world experience that I could learn a thing or two from him. I don't have to like every design he comes up with.
I hope people feel that its ok to question "the Big Guys" without feeling like they're judging them (or their whole body of work). Alot of design is personal preference anyway, right?
Just like arial:) That's your preference. I may hate it but I'll be back here tomorrow (and probably a couple more times today) reading what you have to say.
Lighten up, everyone! :)
telerana (http://telerana.f2o.org)
All the mentioned sites are nice pieces of work. Thoughtful, interesting, well designed. That's what art is about inspiring yourself and others by creating something that takes time and knowledge and highlighting what we as humans are capable of. The CSS/Markup is fun and practical. People like these site because they're good. What's wrong with that? Let's just keep sharing and moving forward. The more information we have free and flowing the better off we are.
Chris Rizzo
To be in this business, you HAVE to be able to accept constructive criticism. I think constructive is the key word, because too many people just run their mouth just because they can. I think constructive is when you can tell someone what is wrong, but also offer a possible solution to the problem. Saying something like:
Your borders are too thin and suck! Your navigation blows dude, why don't you fix it. etc...
That doesn't really help.
Personally, I like the layout and design of this site because its very simple and works for the purpose of this site. This is not a graphics heavy site, or light for that matter :), but people come here for the content, not pictures of Ken Griffey Jr. making the size symbol.
CONTENT CONTENT CONTENT is the key to Whitespace. I am not a typographer, so sometimes I don't pick up on the fact that there are 3 font faces used in this site. I personally am a fan of the new blueish factor going on, it just softens the website up.
To be honest, and this will contradict everything I just said above, but I would love to see a graphical header on this site, or something graphical of nature because with the future of technology, future of the web, possibilities with css, and the fact that browsers are so much more powerful then they used to be, a site like this almost can feel naked compared to the others out there.
So if I was to change something, it would be on the graphical side. You have more content / type talent in your pinky toe then I have in my whole body, so I would never touch that side of your site, but I would do something regarding the design just because with today's web, plain is the word that describes this site (in the graphical sense).
BUT, like I said, CONTENT is king, and if people come for your content, give em your content. Plus, if this design is what makes you happy and the MAJORITY of your visitors, then stick with it.
If it isn't broke, don't fix it
Bryan (http://www.gamecubecheats.info)
Nice Post. Especially the bit about all the fragile egos. I’ve always had the understanding that you learn from your mistakes, and that no one can hit target every time; eventually, everyone misses a shot. Anymore, it seems everyone’s so afraid that someone will say an unkind word about their design, so to hell with taking a chance on something out of the ordinary. Nope. Let’s just change the colors and images, maybe make thing a little bigger, or smaller, and watch the praise come on in.
SM (http://www.bitsofdecay.com)
First of all: I agree completely with Eris.
Second of all: I would have no problems criticizing a guru, professional or amateur designer. After all, they're all people.. and if they can't handle a little bit of constructive criticism - then they don't deserve my respect.
I see no reason why people don't challenge Zeldman, Shea... or the postman down the road trying to build a website with techniques that died in 1997?
Zeldman: I have no problems with his design. The only problem I do/did have is the contrast issue, but he's got a nice little solution to that - even though you have to find it. His book was amazing, and so is the way he puts things - but i'm not going to suck up to him, nor would he want me to.
Shea: He's done great work for CSS, however i'm not crazy about his designs. Sure enough, he's a talented graphic designer, but his web site(s) doesn't/don't really do anything for me.
Scrivs: All I can say to you is - why the blue? Nothing stands out on this site anymore. The links etc just fade into the background. Everything else is fine imo.
The people who inspire me most at the moment seem to be: Jeremy Keith, Scrivs, Eris and Zeldman.
Conclusion: You shouldn't really care if you hurt a guru/amateur etc just by giving them a bit of constructive criticism.. they've just got to learn to grow up and lose the ego, if they take it badly.
Nice post Scrivs, it's nice to see someone daring to say something about "the big boys".
Robert Lofthouse
I'll admit it, I hate criticism. I don't know if anyone really "likes" criticism, persay, but I know I really really don't like it. Which is a tough character trait to have when you're a professional web designer.
So for me, I normally don't give out criticism to others because I dislike it so much. If put on the spot I'll give you some, but otherwise I try to keep my opinions to myself.
The best criticism, or the most helpful, should begin with "I think ..." or "In my opinion ..." because otherwise you come off sounding like a pompous jerk, and no one likes a pompous jerk. "I think that header could use a different background color" is much less likely to put someone on the defensive than "that header needs a different background color."
Rob Cameron (http://www.ridingtheclutch.com)
Andrei -
I could not find your contact information on your site, so I will just post here. What is up with your text rendering in your screenshot? Time to turn on clear type my friend, that is just sickening.
I already informed Scrivs of a utility that lets you adjust it if you think it is too much at first, you can find it on Forever Geek.
Josh Bryant (http://www.thescenicroute.org/weblog/)
Is the very fact of publishing a design on the web an open invitation to a critique?
patrick (http://insignificantother.com)
Summary: A regular review of web sites, like movie and restaurant reviews, might be a good thing, but we are focusing on the wrong sites.
Back in the day (pre dot com crash), there used to be a dead tree weekly publication (I think it has now been folded into what has become eweek) that did reviews of popular web sites like Amazon, and others. There were a number of reviewers, including Nielsen and one of the founders of the Web Standards Project, Glenn Davis (anyone remember him, and the first site he did that launched him into internet stardom?). So the web site review thing has been done before.
It would be interesting to see a review column come back, especially now that IA has come into its own and is more well defined (beyond Nielsen's pronouncements). If it did come back, however, I don't think that any of the sites in Moll's :-) 80/20 post would make the short list of sites to review, though. No one, other than those of us creating the web, really cares.
Speaking of which, Moll should have combined Andrei & Donna and Dan & Deider, opening up the list to two more designers...
As for the other critiques, I agree that most people seem too quick to jump on the bandwagon and gush endlessly about a lot of these sites. But I don't think that they need to be held up for review, either. Save that for sites that more people than the design community care about. Does it really matter whether Zeldman's IA is perfect at zedman.com? I think it is more beneficial to discuss his IA and design work on sites like Clear Channel and Fox Searchlight. These are sites where the IA makes a real difference to real (read: non-techie, non-designers) people.
Same can be said for Cederholm. His work on ESPN Search, Fast Company, and Inc.com is more important to dissect than worrying about whether he patented the two column layout (he couldn't - too much prior art ;-).
Shea's Bright Creative site should serve him well - I hope he gets the clients he wants as a result of that site. But it isn't even a site that designers will go to more than once or twice, because it was not designed for them. Put it in the vault and move on...
As for Scrivs, I, too, liked the old design a bit better than this one, and am often confused about why I see the links I do on the right side. But then, I typically ignore those links anyway. I come for the content, which varies, but is always interesting to read. I also enjoy reading the comments, even though I don't post very many myself, and I think that is part of the appeal of the site. I'd read the site even if I was greeted with something along the lines of Anne's site (though I might force a user style sheet on it after a while).
Mark Newhouse (http://gnuhaus.com/iblog/)
Mark and Patrick: You guys are right and I posted a clarification of sorts, today.
Scrivs (http://businesslogs.com)
Josh -
Have you ever tried Clear Type on a CRT monitor?
Not to clutter this discussion with offtops, I've sent you my opinion on all those utilities. Read it.
Andrei Smirnov (http://www.id-as.com)
Hey Scrivs, the right column looks much better! Personally I like turquoise better than rust so I like the new look. But if you go back to rust, then the arrows bullets in turquoise would look good.
I think the logo looks just a bit odd. I think it's the round ball bit's alignment. Perhaps try aligning the large W with text left, leaving the ball hanging out. It would sort of mimic the headings on the right side. Might work, I haven't tried it to see. Then again perhaps it's just me who doesn't quite like the logo alignment.
Peter
Andrei - Not to clutter again, but did you see the one in Forever Geek? I tried it this weekend while setting up a new XP computer with a CRT monitor, and it works quite nicely... not blurry like the default cleartype, just full, clean text. Actually considering changing over to XP just for that. I'm a sucker for good antialiasing, it's one of the reasons I bought an ibook in the first place. :-)
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
[quote]Is the very fact of publishing a design on the web an open invitation to a critique?[/quote]
Yes. I can't even believe that was asked.
If Johnny Depp makes a movie, do you expect him to just push it past the critics and public without them seeing it? or having an opinion?
Just because something is on the internet, doesn't mean it's any different.
I'm sorry, I won't have an opinion on Goya, Botticelli or any other artist anymore.
Criticizing someones work without them knowing is not nice? Who made that law up? - so every film critic must ask an actor before he puts his work down?
Web designers are not untouchable.
Robert Lofthouse
Robert, sorry, I didn't preview my comment....should have read
'Isn't the very fact of publishing a design on the web an open invitation to a critique?'
patrick (http://insignificantother.com)
Well folks, there are two choices as I see it. I could jump in here and argue and debate about the merits of various design choices I made -- when in all honesty, it looks like most of the critiques in this thread have come down to 'it's not my taste' so I doubt we'd get anywhere -- or I could instead spend that time working on fresh new material.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I got my fill of critiquing at art school, so my choice should be apparent. Knock yourselves out though.
(Confidential to Robert Lofthouse: arguing for public critiques without leaving a link back to your own work... niiiice touch.)
Dave S. (http://www.mezzoblue.com/)
Dave S: Yeah, sorry that my hosting company recently went bust. Luckily I have everything backed up, and insiderhosting to look forward to - think before you post.
Sorry Dave, but you obviously don't read this "blog" much otherwise you would have known my server situation, and I won't treat you any different to anyone else.
There are no guru's in my eyes, just people who stand up and get their voices heard. Either way, if you disrespect me on a personal level - i'll call you an idiot.
Anyways, I apologise to Dave. I am very sorry about my host. I just hope that I can impress in the future.
Right.
Robert Lofthouse
Excellent post. I had written something to a certain effect of this, maybe a tad smaller thans yours but I agree entirely with what you said.
Chris Gwynne (http://www.chrisgwynne.com/)
There is no A-list.
Do what only you can do. Do what you have always wanted to do. Disregard well-meaning entreaties. Disregard ignorant critique. Disregard all input but that from someone who both knows and cares enough to help.
Don't worry. Don't feed circle-jerks. Don't feed dogpiles.
Don't, for that matter, even comment on posts like this - the psychological bandwidth you spend on it will eat your day.
Do your work.
Adam Greenfield (http://www.v-2.org)
There seems to be a lot of emphasis lately on commenters having their own websites... to the point where Dave S has, in his redesign, formatted various types of commenters differently.
I think this is a problem. What about having your own website makes you more worth listening to? Makes your criticisms more valid? That, I'm afraid, is a load of crap. For example, I read movie reviews regularly and am often in complete agreement with the reviewers' opinions. I'm not a filmmaker, and neither are they - yet that doesn't make their opionions any less valid.
The same goes for critiquing, say, a new car design. I think the new BMW 7-series is hideous, for instance. I can say this, and people will probably agree, but I'm not an auto designer.
So - and this is addressed at anyone, including Dave S - why are people with websites (attractive or not) any better than those without?
eric (http://gideondesign.com)
I agree with you.
Although I do have a web site, and it will be up as soon as the server changes - what about the general public? Aren't they allowed to have an opinion on your work without your snobby attitude?
I would have thought that the opinion of the general public is more important than the opinion of a fellow designer. After all, it wasn't your personal site I mentioned - but your designs in general.
These people are always going on about how important it is to get user feedback, regardless of profession - but is that really true?
I feel sorry for the one average guy who decides to make a comment on a self-proclaimed guru's web site - hopefully it won't make him think that we're all like that.
I agree with Adam - there is no A-List. Adam's comments make me respect him even more.
Anyways, got to go start my working day.
Robert Lofthouse
Eric, Robert -- he expressed his thoughts on the matter here:
Semi-Anonymous comments are, as most have noticed, comments that are made without a URI attached. I don’t mean to imply that those without their own sites have less worthwhile things to say, but at the same time, most issues discussed on this site are about building for the web. If you’re here to discuss that, I don’t understand why you wouldn’t have a site of your own. It’s partially a credibility issue, but partially an accountability issue too — it’s easier to be snide when you’re hiding behind a facade of anonymity.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Well in that case, I blame dedred hosting who went bust, for me seeming "less credible" than everyone else.
Of course it's easier to be "snide" when you're behind "anonymity". However, i'd still be as outspoken as I am if I included my web address - which I will do as soon as the sever change happens.
Robert Lofthouse
Pretty easy to be snide when your URL shows, too. there's hardly a dearth of that going around. :-)
And his quote above was supposed to be italicized... guess scrivs turned off some HTML. :-)
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Who knew that "A-List" infighting would hit the CSS blog community? Between this, the 80-20 theory and Dave Shea's "friends of mine" commenting experiment, we are definitely seeing some cattiness on both ends of the pecking order.
omit
Well, i'm sure if I posted on Dave's site i'd have a strikethrough through my post. It's an interesting experiment, but using titles such as "important" and using strikethroughs for other peoples posts is a bit "elitist".
You may wonder why i'm not posting this on his web site, the answer is - I won't post somewhere, where the importance of a post is judged before it is made.
Robert Lofthouse
oh sorry... did I openly criticize someone?
Damn, does anyone know a good lawyer?
Robert Lofthouse
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#1
Maybe I am just a little disturbed because a lot the sites I get for the Vault are Cederholm clones. This might even be a testament to his design. If it ain't broke...
Actually, the vault itself seems to be "a testament to his design" as it's fairly identical outside of colors and the small graphics he used. :-)
Overrated. Without the CSS Vault 80% of you probably wouldn't even know I exist.
I think you've overrated yourself more than other people consider you overrated. if that makes any sense. :-) As for the CSS Vault... guess I'm one of the 20%. I only go there when I'm trying to show someone examples of good design and that it doesn't involve a loud thumping bass track and buttons that don't say anyhting til you mouse over them and other assorted things Flash can do that some poor misguided folks think is the coolest thing in the world.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)