February 22, 2004 | View Comments (48) | Category: Our Thoughts
Summary: Robert Scoble: Designer, Usability Expert, User Experience Afficianado, and all around great guy.
It's very rare that I get upset when I read something (although last week I was upset about Flanders when I first wrote about him, I have since settled down) on a blog because lots of times it is just opinions. But it's these people who have large audiences that go out and say really idiotic things that get to me. The entry in question that put me over the edge today has to do with Microsoft's Greatest Web Designer, Robert Scoble. But Scrivs you say, Scoble is no web designer. In fact his blog isn't even about web design. Ah, yes you are correct I beam back, but then why should he tell all of his readers that the "prettiness" of a site means absolutely nothing? This is another case of people not taking designers and developers seriously.
First let me assure everyone that this has nothing to do with Lars' site or his choice of best designed blogs. If he likes them I am cool with it, he is not trying to be an authority on the matter. Our dear friend Scoble however, has decided that he knows why our pretty designs fail and why he along with his audience will only read our blogs in newsreaders. Let's go over some of his points to help all of us build better sites.
I totally agree with this point. Great point. Nobody would argue that a site that is hard to read can be a major pain. But let's look at what he says next:
Forget making it pretty. If you try to make it pretty we'll just read it in our RSS News Aggregator which doesn't pass along design info anyway.
You know all these years I sometimes wondered why I would try to make web design my profession and now I know that I was merely wasting my time because good design just doesn't mean anything </sarcasm>. Some sites do go over the edge and try to make things pretty before they make them readable and usable. However, the idea that Scoble gives across is that much all sites could look the same with maybe just a change in headers and most sites don't even need a web presence, just an RSS feed. The web would be a much better place then.
If you are a designer and you talk about design, then your audience would like to see what your tastes are. What your styles are. RSS feeds don't give you that impact. Someone could be a great writer and discuss all the great things about design, but if you couldn't see their site, how would you even know they are legit? If Nielsen only showed his content through an RSS feed, I think we would all be convinced that he was the world's greatest minimalist designer.
The reason most people will read your content in a Newsreader is because they have 50 other sites whose content they have to read as well. I never heard of anyone leaving a site because the designer tried to make it pretty.
Scoble wishes to get the idea across that his site is really easy to read because he uses a generous font-size and sufficient line-lengths. From that standpoint the site is very easy to read. Bravo. But is that the only things that a site needs to be readable? Go back a couple of days in his archives and find an entry midway through the day and leave the site. Go back a couple days later and find that entry. Good luck. The site is readable from a "present tense" standpoint, but lacks readablity from a "past tense" standpoint.
Hmmmm, just read this:
My site is #49 on Technorati's list (out of 1.4 million blogs). Why do I have readership while many of these "well designed" weblogs don't? Cause I focused on making my blog readable. If you want a pretty looking site, go somewhere else. (Most of the top 100 are "ugly" blogs -- but they all are easy to read).
I am guessing that Scoble is an intelligent guy. He works for Microsoft, which hires intelligent people (let's stick to the discussion people) and from what I can tell is respected by a good number of folks on the internet. But to make a stupid claim like this is beyond me. I am not one to call people names, but this is really one of the most idiotic statements I have heard coming from someone of Scoble's status. He totally ignores the fact that his site is high up in Technorati because of the content. His audience is much larger compared to that of a web designer's. Zeldman is high up on the list which is to be expected, but a look at the majority of the blogs up there and they have nothing to do with web design. Should we expect designer's blogs to be up there when there only a few names that are recognizable outside the design community such as Zeldman's.
Is it really fair to expect non-designers to create good looking sites? I don't think it is, but Scoble thinks that the ugly sites have the edge because they are easy to read. I think they have the edge because their content appeals to a broader audience. Nothing more, nothing less.
A great test would be to apply Scoble's design to that of a designer's blog and let's see if his audience increases or decreases. My guess is that it would decrease. Just my guess though.
Trackback URL: http://9rules.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-tb.cgi/156
Is Scoble a "somebody" then? Never heard of him, save as a distant echo. He obviously thinks he's important, and it sounds like you consider him to be important too. I took a look at his site, but couldn't find anything that interested me. He didn't mention that having a large font size in black on white is pointless if you bore people to death with your content. I can see why he doesn't go to a great deal of effort in the presentation of his website, why bother, it's rubbish.
He's the typical web jackass sounding off. People like him don't make you want to start reading blogs by RSS feed, they make you want to turn off your computer and read books.
Joel (http://biroco.com/)
Ahh, no need to delete a comment which shows the very reason I should stop posting on Sundays :)
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
A great test would be to apply Scoble's design to that of a designer's blog and let's see if his audience increases or decreases. My guess is that it would decrease.
And Visa versa. If a vault design was applied to Scoble's design it would increase. ;)
Ian (http://www.e-lusion.com)
Joel: Well said. I never read him myself and for some reason I just happened across that post.
With that in mind, I do need to get back to reading books.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Ian: haha, I could definitely see that happening.
Damn, you guys are posting comments too fast.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Personally I have a lot of respect for Scoble, but unfortunately I see his "design doesn't matter" state of mind far too much. I'm not asking everyone to be an aesthete, but I would think the fact that design is paramount to effectiveness in any medium would be apparent to educated people.
Matt (http://photomatt.net/)
I agree with what you said about that site's readability. I was thinking the same thing. I scrolled up to see how the top part of his site looked like (header/navigation), when I scrolled back down, I could no longer find the entry which you linked to. I had to go back, then forward in Firefox.
A great test would be to apply Scoble's design to that of a designer's blog and let's see if his audience increases or decreases. My guess is that it would decrease. Just my guess though.Doing it the other way around would be interesting, too.
On a side note, there's a typo here: "Is it really fair to expect non-designers to create goog looking sites?"
Tom
Wow, sorry about that. I had this tab opened for quite a while and I didn't think there would be so many comments already.
Tom
I went over to Scoble's site and could barely stand to read it with the way it looked. That site may actually work in IE 1.0.
His particular audience may not care about design but I think he is underestimating the entire web population.
Brian (http://savedbyzero.org)
I think maybe the Technorati rating has gone to the guy's head. It would be a little insulting, being told that my (and other design bloggers') designs are driving people away, but his comments are laughable when he doesn't even relate readership to great content.
There really aren't two "sides" to this argument. We seem to be in the middle, while Scoble seems to be way off on an extreme. We argue that both design and content are important to a web presence. He argues that, while content isn't particularly important, adding any design is a detriment. From this slightly exaggerated representation of his viewpoint, one would deduce that Scoble's perfect website would have neither content nor a "pretty" design. Interesting.
Scoble also needs to consider that design is about way more than aesthetics. For example, looking here at Whitespace, I see a great design. Not necessarily because of the appearance (which is nice too), but because of the way the content has been "designed" to fit the user's needs.
I don't read Scoble, but this wasn't a good first impression. I'll let it slide; maybe he has something useful to say. But design certainly isn't his strong point.
By the way, aesthete is a cool word. Thanks for expanding my vocabulary. :)
Chris Vincent (http://dris.dyndns.org:8080/)
eh, relax, Paul. Kick back, read Eastern Standard Tribe, laugh when Doctorow gets to the bit about engineers being essentially highly functional autistics who haven't any sense of connection with what people actually think, and remember that part of your job as a designer is to make things that developers build look good and be easy to use.
I read this great article at IBM's developer works... I think neilsen linked to it. Anyway, it was about the basic problem in design/development whether desktop or webbased software, was that the developers were simply too intelligent. Think about it. The average coder is easily in the top 1-2% of the population, you're probably in the top .5%... the idea that any of us can think down to the 'average' level is a bit silly. That's why we have to put so much focus on usability, because what's usable to joe coder might not be usable to joe trucker or jane hairdresser. And they care about things being "pretty" much more than joe coder does (I constantly deal with "can't you put some more color in that?" and the like in my intranet applications).
I do have to laugh about "we'll just read it in an RSS aggregator" ...how many 'average' people do you know who would have the faintest clue what that means? That just shows the base disconnect. And we all have it to some extent. His is just more than yours, Paul, just as yours is probably more than, say, Dave Shea.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Glad to see you think I am at the top JC. Couldn't agree with you more ;-P
I am definitely relaxed and just had to let some steam out. Glad to see some others agree with me. Will definitely have to check out that book, but the idea of reading a PDF that size gives me a headache.
Yep, I definitely feel much better now. I do have to thank Scoble for giving me something to write about since I always seem to run out of things to say here ;)
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
works pretty well if you do it in plaintext... then you can give it whatever font you prefer in whatever reader you prefer. Or pick up the dead tree version, they have it at B&N brick and mortars... haven't checked borders.
JC (http://http;//www.thelionsweb.com/weblog)
I've never heard of him until today either and frankly aside from anything else I didn't enjoy his tone so I doubt I'll be going back.
Your point about audience is right on the money, I left a comment saying pretty much the same thing on his site before I read your bit.
There is much more that's wrong with his post, but It's been done before, and it's old news.
Keith (http://www.7nights.com/asterisk/)
++ I could totally go on and on about this here topic, but I need to go design an ecommerce site so that my client can their swerve on...
I would add that if we get rid of design then why not get rid of all culture, all dance, all music, all art, and sit in darkened rooms drooling as we wait for Scoble to send us more commands through our newsreader. Gets old after a day, at most...except for the drooling part, that can be fun for weeks at a time.
Anyways, yea good topic, cheers mate.
Conquering Lion (http://www.submunition.com)
Ever wondered why Microsoft Technologies lag behind lately??
Here's why, they have these bunch of idiotic ppl hired, like scoble, in the 90's.
They're ruining the company with their narrowed sights.
I wonder why he hasn’t distributed his blog on a zip file. That would be pretty fast opening and would be usable.
Bloody M$ Mondays.
rseal
I read some blogs through RSS. I also read some blogs through the traditional browser interface. Scoble's is one I definitely pass through FeedDemon, while others like Whitespace and Mezzoblue go through Firefox. Why? Because the design of Whitespace makes reading far easier than both Scoble's Times New Roman fantasy land and FeedDemon.
Vinnie (http://blog.vinniegarcia.com/)
The debate is called "form vs. function" and it has been going on a long time, longer than printed text even existed... though only brought to live in a debate between architects. I wrote an article on this a while back (in 1999).
The problem with the whole debate here today is that Robert was saying "function first, then form" but it came across as saying "function only" ...so naturally people like myself and Paul would scream "form is important too!"
Anyway, the rule is "form ever follows function" ...keywords here are 'ever' as in never without, and 'follows' as in always comes after.
Nick (http://www.digital-web.com)
Why do designers and developers never get together? Because they don't sit down and consider what each other is saying.
I'm not saying get rid of all design. Just that many of the "pretty blogs" are doing design for design's sake and making it harder to read those sites every day.
I put my readers in control. You can change my font because I haven't set one. If you are seeing Times Roman, that's cause that's the default font your browser is set to. Change that and it'll change my weblog.
As far as what makes me important? Nothing. What makes you important and worth listening to? Hmmm?
Robert Scoble (http://scoble.weblogs.com)
Mr Scoble -- I don't see why you shouldn't feel proud of your web design efforts. Everyone likes to feel that what they have done to the best of their ability is actually "good". It's another thing, however, to pass off lack of aesthetic talent and visual sensibility as "better". It's ignoble to talk up your weaknesses as if they were your strengths. You are fooling no-one but yourself.
All you have done is set up a straw man -- "pretty blogs" -- in order to spew resentment that is more about making yourself feel better for being crap at design than it is about making a point about readability. You may have confused the two in your mind, and so lead others into tackling the wrong debate, but those who are more clear-sighted see you for what you are, a person hoping to incite a reaction, which in your geeky world I believe is known as a "troll".
Joel (http://biroco.com/)
Scrivs, im usre your blogs up there in the #100 isnt it? As for that microsoft guys site..yuk i couldnt stand too look at it any longer than it took for my water to boil.
I think design plays a very important role of a sites readabilty; like w_space; i love reading topics on here because im in a cool relaxed enviroment..courtesy of your subtle yet beautiful design.
but hey..im still a kid; so what do i know ;)
-peace
Steven (http://brightdreative.com)
I am not even close to being in the top 100 for techorati, but it is one of those things where the rich get richer. If you are in the top 100 though, you are receiving some major traffic. But of course you should only take it for what it's worth. I am still a small fry though.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
>but those who are more clear-sighted see you for what you are, a person hoping to incite a reaction, which in your geeky world I believe is known as a "troll".
Ahh, yes. More name calling. OK. Guilty as charged. Thanks for responding to the bait, if that's really what you think. :-)
Robert Scoble (http://scoble.weblogs.com)
>As for that microsoft guys site..yuk i couldnt stand too look at it any longer than it took for my water to boil.
Doesn't it really chap your hide that thousands of people visit me every day, even thought I have a damn ugly weblog?
:-)
Robert Scoble (http://scoble.weblogs.com)
But do you really think they visit you just because your site is readable? That seems to be your whole argument Robert.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
It's a common fallacy that a high number of visitors equates with a quality website. Some indeed seem overly impressed by such statistics. Yet we all know that in the real world crowds flock to all sorts of rubbish, their heads are easily turned, whereas the more discerning generally look elsewhere.
Mass appeal has never been much of a gauge of quality. Those who find themselves popular and let it go to their heads are perhaps comforting themselves with the thought that "a million flies can't be wrong".
Joel (http://biroco.com/)
Ah. its nice to see the war is still being waged here. beautiful. beautiful.
Shows like Who Wants To Marry A Millionaire draw an immense crowd of viewers...this does not make them good, it just makes them accessible. Two different goals.
Frankly, I would go for drawing a smaller audience for my show, "Hey Can You Loan Me Like A Buck Twenty-Five?", even if it is less accessible(unprovoked street altercations do not attract advertisers...yet), rather than try to pull some least common denominator shit.
Anyways, I could give a shit about Scoble, or any other employee of any major softare firm. I encourage him to speak his mind and continue to Scobleize that ass fast and quickly.
In the meantime, designers and coders both will wake up from their haze(hopefully drug induced) and realize that the division between the designer and coder is artificial. Once a mutual respect, and ideally merging of disciplines occurs, the human race can start to enjoy some powerful software that they enjoy using. Until then, we can stumble around with Word and other nasty ass apps like the bitches that we truly, truly are. Thank you.
I am your new god. Kneel before me or die. (http://www.submunition.com)
:yawn:
I'm both a designer and developer. I like a good site that functions well and looks good.
Scoble wasn't actually saying design doesn't matter (in my opinion), just that in his opinion his design was fine.
Also, point of reference, Scoble was only recently hired by MS. Who do in fact hire very smart people.
Jeremy C. Wright (http://www.ensight.org)
no it doesnt reall bother me personaly that thousands of people visit your site daily Robert.
I still think the sites ugly :D
hope that helps chap some hides ;)
Steven
Maybe I'm just crazy, but... I fail to see what's so *ugly* about Scoble's site.
It's very *plain*, yes. But not ugly. I've seen ugly sites. I've seen color combinations that would induce nausea. I've seen font choices that make you claw your eyes. Pictures that look like they were made by 3-year-olds.
I smell a little snobbery going on here, maybe not consciously intended, but there nonetheless. Not every who can make content that people like to view can also be good at design. I know I'm not good at design at all... my layouts look like they came from Colored Boxes R Us. But IMHO, it's better for someone who's not good at design to have a plain but functional layout, than to attempt something beyond their skills and end up with a mess. Let's not dub things *ugly* just because it doesn't have avant-guarde header pictures and high-class rollover effects, hmm?
Liz Calkins (http://alienharmony.com/)
Liz: I can't speak for everyone who has posted comments, but I never mentioned that his site was ugly (at least I don't think so). However, the point of it was to discuss how Scoble alluded to the idea that he felt design was useless. But then he goes on to mention readability, which is merely a subset of a design. Sure some designers will look at the site and take an arrogant approach about it, but he would do the same thing if one of us were to show a high disregard for his field and claim it as unimportant.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
I don't blame you guys for getting a bit upset... whether or not it's what he intended, Scoble's post did imply he felt design was unimportant, which it's not... it's very important. I was just feeling a little uneasy at some of the people who did get a little too arrogant. Being a non-design-skilled webmaster in a "pretty" web is humbling enough without listening to people lambasting plain design as ugly. Chalk it up to low self-esteem, if you wish. ;)
Liz Calkins (http://alienharmony.com/)
We all understand that everyone can't do perfect design and I am sure everyone on here wouldn't just randomly pick a site and start talking about how ugly they think it is. However, when someone disrespects what we do (it's hard enough to get respect as a web designer), well then they are setting themselves up to be criticized. And I think it is only more fair since Scoble decided to go after Lars' site.
But you seem to be on the good side anyways Liz, so you are cool ;)
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
"Mass appeal has never been much of a gauge of quality."
Joel, you do realize you just said that to someone who works for Microsoft, right? heh. OK, so that was a cheap shot.
I'm not particularly impressed by his snide comments here, but hey, he can be an asshole all he wants, I'm a card-carrying member of the club myself. He's just in the "nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah" childish division, while I'm in the blunt and impatient one.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
I am yet another who had never heard of Dick Scoble (sounds like a disease!) prior to stumbling across a link somewhere. I have no idea what he does for Microsoft but wish that my work allowed me the time to be as prolific as he. I am all for reasoned opinions but having looked through his text, find mostly statements with little thought applied and even less information to back up his ideas. About the only thing his blog seems to have going for it is the huge number of links to take the weary reader back to reality. He thinks himself almost God-like due to the huge number of CEOs who read his efforts. I, for one, do not plan to waste any more time on this arrogant, ladder-climbing and opinionated waste of bandwidth. I might just use his name as an excuse to my boss for being off sick! "Sorry, can't make it in today, got a case of the dick scoble!"
Adrian Rinehart-Balfe (http://www.boogenstein.com)
In case anyone missed it, Andrei over at Design by Fire has written up a great post on why design matters.
Also in regards to the argument of 'we'll just read it in our RSS News Aggregator which doesn't pass along design info anyway.' Eric Meyer makes an interesting point.
Now, of course, I have an RSS aggregator that tells me when something new has appeared on a site. Thanks to NetNewsWire, I've become much more efficient about keeping up with all the weblogs I read. I'm also losing touch with the sites themselves, and by extension, with the people behind those sites.
I use the RSS Reader Panel extension for Firefox specifically because I enjoy reading articles on the web within the site they were created in. Using a news reader is just not the same.
uh ... I'm not sure if that made sense (it's been a long day), but hopefully you'll get the gist of it.
Max
If any of you are wondering why I called Robert Scoble 'Dick' before, may I apologise. Reading his rhetoric convinced me that he was called Richard and the shortened version fits him well. Sorry for any confusion!
Adrian Rinehart-Balfe (http://www.boogenstein.com/)
I've finally found the time to write a little somethin' somethin' on this - it's kind of long, though, so if anyone wants to read it it's over here.
Ben Scofield (http://www.culann.com/grumble)
too funny. You're now the #10 google rank for keyword "scoble"
JC (http://http;//www.thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Mine are only that big because JC posts comments. Take his away and I am sure you are only left with 5kb :P
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Sure, Paul. I'm just a long winded blowhard. That really chaps your hide, doesn't it.
LOL
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Been following this debate on mezzoblue and Asterisk (I think it was Asterisk)...so I'll just reiterate what I tried to say at mezzoblue...
IMHO, it's not that "form follows function", as is so often quoted. It's that "form reinforces function, and function reinforces form".
You'll notice that web sites in particular (but applicable to most things) tend to be a bit easier to deal with when they are both functional and designed well...and sites that tend towards one extreme or the other are not.
I'm not a big fan of Master Scoble, although I do appreciate the fact that he is unafraid to speak his mind. But I do have a difficult time reading his blog, mainly because I can't stand to look at it. And I'm primarily a developer :)
Decent form reinforces whatever function a product is. This site is a good example; it's a soapbox, and I don't always agree with what's said...but at the same time I'm interested regardless; and I think part of that has to do with the idea that the site is aesthetically friendly.
I wish more of the MS bloggers would pay attention to that (I'm not just referring to Mr. Scoble here, but others as well...for instance, Chris Sell's blog is pretty much unreadable in anything other than IE, and I *do* respect his opinion on other matters. And to forestall the arg that "I should just use IE to read it then", I will say that I am a HUGE fan of the RSS Reader in Firefox, and tend to read all my blogs with it because of it. If IE had a built-in RSS reader, I would consider using it, but then I'd want the tabs as well ;)
(more postscript: I tend to develop with and in IE, so don't take the above as more IE bashing, it's just a statement of fact).
Tom Trenka (http://www.dept-z.com)
tom - use myie2. internet explorer wrapper, tabs, lots of extras. I don't think it has an rss reader by default, but I think there's an addon for one. Works quite nicely. I particularly like the uber-quick tab closing method... little x in the top right of each tab.. right click on it and the tab is gone (and you won't accidently click it when selecting a tab)
JC (http://http;//www.thelionsweb.com/weblog)
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#1
"good" not "goog" in next to last paragraph. Feel free to delete this.
Matt (http://photomatt.net/)