I was patient. I debugged. I grew tired. My next blog (that hasn't been worked on yet) will use a new blogging software and I need to decide whether I head down the Textpattern route or WordPress route. Eventually, I think the 9rules team will build our own software (we have a top notch designer, an usability expert, and a guru programmer...and I am none of those) for blogging use since I still see some room in that market, but for now it's time to move on from MovableType. What's the problem I have with it? Well let me first admit that I have not done any research into this problem so it might be something that I am missing, but that doesn't matter since it's time to expand my blog software knowledgebase anyways.
The problem that I am having is that MT doesn't rebuild some pages or build them properly once I publish an entry. This only occurs with the latest version (3.15 as of this writing) and causes a major headache, because after I publish an entry, I then have to go back and rebuild all the files to make sure everything is in proper order. Wouldn't be a problem if I was just one man, running one blog, with one author, posting once a day, but that isn't the case.
Here is a list of features that I am looking for:
It's a basic blogging list, but those are the essentials. Any advice beyond just telling me which one to go with is greatly appreciated.
Posted by Scrivs at April 8, 2005 10:43 AM
#1 | Justin French (http://justinfrench.com)
If the URLs are important, you're going to have issues with Textpattern. I'm an avid fan of it, but the URL structures (even the RC3 options) aren't even close to what you've got going on, and I doubt a few mod_rewrites could fix it. You could hack the source, but then you have to repeat on every upgrade.
Instead of "easy export", you just need "stored in a data format I can parse" – if you've got data in MySQL, then you can do anything you want.
In a couple of months time TextThing will show it's head (written by myself, Ruby on Rails based) and could solve all your problems, or frustrate the shit out of you, depending on what you're looking for ;)
#2 | Dougal (http://dougal.gunters.org/)
Obviously I'm biased, since I'm a WordPress developer. But WordPress does cover most of your requirements.
MT import, multiple authors, spam prevention features (graylist, blacklist, open proxy rbl checks), and a lush plugin API are already there.
The current core distribution doesn't currently handle management of multiple blogs from a single install, but there is the WordPress-MU branch. It handles multi-blog installations, and adds Smarty templates, to boot. And there are various hacks that can be done to dedicate a category as a "pseudo blog" using the standard version.
There are plugins that will let you use underscores rather than dashes in your permalinks, so you should be able to replicate your existing structure.
I don't know if it's finished yet, but there is an effort already underway to create an export tool. Really, though, it would probably be pretty easy to write your own, using the Atom or RSS feed as an intermediate format.
#3 | Scrivs (http://9rules.com/)
Yeah I figured that would be a problem for any software doing things dynamically. The one thing I do love about MT's building of pages is that even though I cleared the Whitespace database, the old pages still exist on the server so none of the links pointing into this site are broken.
I have a funny feeling that a lot of blog packages based on Ruby on Rails will be popping up this year. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with Justin.
#4 | Scrivs (http://9rules.com/)
Hmm, I have a strange feeling that this discussion is going to be heavily geared towards WordPress...
Thanks for the information Dougal. Another plus for WordPress is that our developer is a whiz with it. Maybe he will chime in some time.
#5 | Mike P. (http://www.fiftyfoureleven.com)
Scrivs, we've chatted about this before. I had some demands that none of the basic blog software out there could meet when I began, so I built my own. It has taken awhile, I'm almost finished, but in the end it was well worth it (yes, those late night are going to pay off!). Very, VERY worth it.
I *almost* banged my head against the wall when WP 1.5 came out with it's promise for heirarchically based category urls (useful for niche based blogs), but it turns out that isn't quite working yet. This was one of the driving reasons why I DIY'd.
One thing I didn't do at first was check out more complicated things like Drupal, for example. If I were you, I would have a look at some of those systems - from what I have read they are much more powerful then WP or TxP. I steered clear of those mostly because I can be a bit of a control freak, and knowing my own code inside and out will be worth it, I hope, in the long run.
My 2cents.
Justin, I'm looking forward to TextThing.
Oh, and Scrivs, I'm not hip to all of the details, but word on the street is http://wordform.org/ will be launching in the next week(s). From the site "...yes, the first alpha release of Wordform will have multi-weblog support". It's a WP fork, I believe.
#6 | ben (http://www.binarymoon.co.uk/)
I don't have anything particularly intelligent to say but as a newbie blogger, and reasonably knowledgable web designer, I spent quite a while choosing ablog system and in the end went with WordPress. The speed of developement was great, it was easy and fast to setup and implementing the templates was a breeze.
So far I'm very happy, but my blog has only been online about two weeks so there's plenty of time for things to go wrong.
I do find it interesting that WordPress has become a lot more popular since movebletype became paid for though (I guess it's not THAT surprising), the new template and the major update probably helped as well.
Oh - and I have been there and done that with the custom system (php with flat files) and in the end dropped it and went with an open source one. It was jujst too much like hard work and it seemed silly 'reinventing the wheel'
#7 | francey (http://www.francey.org)
Textpattern or Wordpress?
I've used both. wordpress for longer (since before 1.0), and Textpattern for less long, but I like to think that I am familiar with both.
The advantages of textpattern are that it's great for more complete all-out content management. You can make new pages and sections for your site without ever touching the HTML ever. And these pages can be easily dynamically updated. Can it be used for a blog too? Absolutely, but that's not it's primary purpose. There are a lot of features that are essential to blogs that textpattern simply doesn't have - archives organized by date is one glaring example. Trackback is another. (Don't get me wrong, I luuurve textpattern, it's just that I don't think it's right for what you need from a CMS).
Wordpress has it's own little niggles. I find the documentation horrendous, and the support has been less than stellar (although you can't really blame the wordpress folks - after all they are donating their time for free, to help you). The templating can be very confusing, especially to inexperienced bloggers, and those who don't know PHP, since the tags are all php functions. The first time I used it, I was scared to death of those tags. I have since learned PHP and am no longer scared to death.
However, for your purposes Wordpress is right for you. It has everything a blog should have, and nothing a blog shouldn't have. And as far as url's go, it is much, much, much more flexible.
#8 | Kyle (http://www.warpspire.com)
Whoa, whoa whoa... I just feel the need to clear some things that francey has said up.
My vote goes to WP, although - to be honest, there's no "clean" way to do multi-blogs easily. It's more like separate installations. Also, keep an eye out for Typo (RoR blog) that is progressing very nicely.
#9 | Scrivs (http://9rules.com/)
Ha, another RoR blogging package. I told you so. Thanks for giving us your perspective Kyle. I can definitely see how different people would have different experiences.
#10 | francey (http://www.francey.org)
The documentation is horrendous for people who aren't geeks. Really, a non-techie can't understand anything that's in the codex *or* wiki. I was in that position once, and no, it's not because I'm dumb or stupid, it's because it isn't written with the average user in mind.
And the tags, frankly, are scary for the same reason.
#11 | Peter (http://4-ever.org/)
This thread will give you an idea of what url schemes you can use for txp. I think it will be built into the txp release, but when is anybody's guess. There are lots of plugins so if txp doesn't quite do what you want straight off, there is usually a plugin that will, or you can make your own of course.
#12 | Lukasz Grabun (http://www.grabun.com/)
One word: blosxom. Small, fast and gets the job done. It is easily extendable and if you are lucky to know Perl you can modify it (with no need of reading plethora of manuals or weird APIs specifications) to suit your needs. I've tried MT and Textpattern. Both are good but blosxom is way better. And I mean it.
Oh, I almost forgot to mention: it fulfils all the requirements.
#13 | david gouch (http://www.freepgs.com/individed/)
Look at the templating system. If it's insane, don't use that software.
#14 | ubernostrum
Personally, I'm a happy Textpattern user, but I've set up Wordpress and other CMS software for clients; it's all about the right tool for the job.
In your case, I'd lean toward Textpattern; the only thing it's missing is the URL structure which, though it's much easier to work with these days, still isn't quite there. You could probably get what you want, but it'd take some hacking.
Wordpress doesn't come quite as close, particularly, because (IMHO) the multiple-blogs support is still really ugly to use.
#15 | Denis de Bernardy (http://www.semiologic.com)
Give WordPress a try, really. It has a couple of niggles, but when you reach the bottom line, it outperforms every other CMS I've tried -- and opensourcecms.com has lots of them.
Opposite to Dougal, though, I'd suggest you keep away from wp-mu -- at least in its current state. You're probably better off with multiple wp installs and a planet-style aggregator plugin (there are several) to create the blog digest, if that is what you've got in mind.
#16 | James Archer (http://www.fortymedia.com)
Forget this Wordpress/Textpattern stuff and DIY. It's time to throw off the shackles of blogging software, comrade!
#17 | Matt (http://photomatt.net/)
I use nested category URIs for permalinks on a site I did a few months ago, and it worked fine. Mike P, if you send me what didn't work I can look into it or at least file a bug about it.
What I look for when evaluating software (any type): stability, features, add-on/plugin community, support (web or chat based), website, examples of use.
#18 | Nate Wienert
Textpattern, definately the most flexible CMS I've ever had the pleasure to work with.
Check out www.winatpoker.com if you don't believe me. 100% textpattern.
#19 | Mike P.
Hey Matt, thanks I will drop you a note. It is filed as a bug already, and there are some threads in the support forum about it. I´ll send you a note...
#20 | Lewis
It's still in beta, but Symphony is shaping up to be the best CMS.
Check it out: http://www.symphony21.com/
#21 | Joe Clay (http://www.gra-phix.com/)
DIY all the way....you'll learn a lot and you can build in anything you want. The best part? You can sell it later. Now I've got to get started on mine! I've got a deadline: May 1st Reboot!
#22 | luke (http://www.sydneyanglicans.net)
ExpressionEngine does everything you want, except for point 6 (its $150). Plus, it kicks arse, and its designed *smart*. (Its the CMS for the site in my URL, which consists of 25+ blogs, which I built using EE :).
#23 | Adrian (http://www.boogenstein.com/)
I can't help thinking that whatever route you take, keeping your url format the same is going to be a problem. Francey pointed out that Textpattern doesnt have archives by date but there is a plugin that does that. The new ability for admin side plugins is adding considerable flexibility as well.
If I were you I would find myself a little spare server space and install them both! You could try the importing from MT and get an idea of the capabilities and deficiencies.
#24 | Paul (http://www.roguetory.org.uk/)
I'd strongly suggest writing your own software to be honest. I've tried Wordpress since version 1.0 and every time it has disappointed me, from the dodgy database design of earlier versions, unencrypted passwords (although I believe this has finally been fixed) and it's splendid Rewrite rule generator which somehow manages to deny everyone access to my site.
Textpattern is nice, but development seems to have stopped (I've heard mentions of RC3 but RC1 from September 2004 is the version linked to on the site) and whilst it shows promise it's just not coming along that fast as far as I can see. The Textile feature is incredibly useful but then you can just do what I did and rip it out to use in your own system.
I found myself DIY'ing, it took me two days to churn out something which does pretty much all I need, and I added on trackback support a bit later. Other than that the only thing it's missing is an admin interface, but to be honest phpMyAdmin is sufficient for most things. You can use Smarty for templates (much nicer than any "built-in" system I've seen, and can be as flexible as you want basically) or indeed any other system you choose.
#25 | Mike Purvis (http://uwmike.com)
I went DIY. But I was in no particular rush to 'get started'. The purpose of my site was to learn PHP, not to blog for its own sake. So my DIY software is extremely basic, but there's some interesting blog-photo integration in the pipe that I haven't seen elsewhere yet. (and haven't got the time to work on atm, arg.)
#26 | Ryan Latham (http://www.unmatchedstyle.com)
I have personally been playing with the idea of a CMS for a month now. I have been keeping tracks of my ideas of what I feel it needs, and what I would like it to have in means of flexibility, expendability, and customization. It is a task. Coding the thing would be nothing...nothing. PHP comes natural to a lot of us, and the coding wouldn't be anything.
However getting it together, thinking it through, and discovering the best way to implement your ideas into it do take some time. I know what you mean about the whole MT rebuilding issue, I get that a lot...and it is sluggish when you have a lot of entries and comments.
My idea is to have it all PHP and mySQL driven, with automatic .htaccess output to make the names look prettier. Because everyone knows that page titles such as
/index.php?id=00357#commentsare not worth a damn to a lot of things.
However where the actual programming of all of this is about a 10 hour task to get a working prototype, it is inevitable that during that 10 hours of programming there will be 100 hours of "mother f&@#$r!" along with "where was I going with this," and not to mention "why did I name my date field date?"
But in the end I think with the way you are trying to grow the 9rules Network a custom CMS would be the way to go. I mean I've only got a few sites now, and they all run MT...and half this crap I never use, and features I would like to be there are non-existing. So, both WordPress and TextPattern are great; however, a custom tailored system would most likely be the best route to take.
#27 | Brian (http://bludrop.info)
"Textpattern is nice, but development seems to have stopped (I've heard mentions of RC3 but RC1 from September 2004 is the version linked to on the site) and whilst it shows promise it's just not coming along that fast as far as I can see."
RC3 actually does exist and it is coming farther everyday (it is available through SVN, or subversion, only- check out the forums for more information). Textpattern has great support for plugins for everything (including date based archives), great support (and the documentation is being written so normal people can understand it), and now it also supports Admin Side Plugins which allow even more features. The URL schemes are not that easy to customize, but there are some plugins that help to make things a little easier. Also, there is no PHP necessary, as textpattern uses its own tags (much like MT, I think). If you just look at the dev site, you will find that it is being updated everyday.
http://forum.textpattern.com For the forums (and information on obtaining RC3)
http://dev.textpattern.com/timeline For development updates
#28 | Ray
There is a workable solution for clean titled url's in TextPattern. It does require a couple of extra, but very simple, steps.
A work around for CTU's in TxP
#29 | Brian (http://bludrop.info)
"There is a workable solution for clean titled url's in TextPattern. It does require a couple of extra, but very simple, steps."
I think there might even be an easier way if you are using RC3
Try this plugin
#30 | Destry
Methods for getting Textpattern rc3 via Subversion are easily found in TextBook, chapter 5. I think there's some more Mac-oriented instructions coming soon. TxP 1.0 is due any day (has been for a while), and will then be manually downloadable from textpattern.com as usual.
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