April 06, 2004 | View Comments (44) | Category: Whitespace
Summary: Time for redesign 2004.
If you really thought I would make it through the year without redesigning this site then well you are, ummm, you are...not very smart. Anyways, there are some changes that need to be made to this site as a new section or two or five is going to be added. Last redesign I made the whole process public. Was this beneficial at all to anyone? I mean, would anyone care for me to do it again? No guarantees of course as this time the process is going to take much longer.
This is also a place where you can suggest new features that you would like to see such as:
So this is a pretty broad entry, so we can just have fun with it.
Trackback URL: http://9rules.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-tb.cgi/199
go public!
my favorite part of web design is watching the thought process of a designer, which can only be accomplished from seeing them design from beginning to end
ak (http://www.alexkeeny.com/simplicity/)
Alex: Haha, I thought you wanted me to take whitespace public like on Nasdaq or something.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
scrivs: lol! what do you think whitespace's share price would go for? :D
ak (http://www.alexkeeny.com/simplicity/)
Oh I would easily hit $0.13. No doubt about it. Add some images and I might even go up to $0.20.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
now you're getting ads for log homes. Maybe the changes maximize ad impressions for advertisers, but they certainly don't seem to have much bearing on the content of the website.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Well, in keeping with your subject matter over the last several days, why don't you provide your viewership with a creative brief via an online form and let us define the parameters of your redesign? I mean after all, you are providing this as a resource - right?
If it means anything, personally I think you should leave this alone, and get working on 9 Rules - especially the textual content.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Yeah, I think pulling the string on a public redesign would be beneficial to lots of people.
:)
Mike (http://phark.typepad.com)
Isn't this really already a public redesign? The first thing I noticed this morning was that you increased the size of your titles and MT navigation menu.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Ah those were just minor "Hey Scrivs is bored changes" that I made last night.
Mike: sick man, sick.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
I am 100% sure I don't want to know what you mean by that, Mike.
And scrivs, you still have a "quite place on the web"
And git that search in there! hehehe
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
One thing that I'd point out is that your individual archive page (IAP) appears to show the second through fourth most recent entries, which works well when you're viewing the most recent entry's IAP; when viewing older entries, the behavior is consistent, but unexpected. At the very least, the title -- "Previous 3 Entries" -- is misleading.
I really like the multiple-tier "drill-into" navigation, just pointing out one place where the logic seems a bit forced.
(I don't know, alas, how one would solve this problem without resorting to MT plugins.)
Brian (http://joechip.net/brian/)
The one thing I've noticed is that in IE6 / Win 2000 the spacing at the top of the pages (between the top of the page and the top of the banner) is inconsistent across the entire site. It's noticable when clicking through the tabs.
Also, hovering over links causes the text line and the one immediately above it to shift to the left. This only happens the first time you hover.
Finally, visited links turn the same color of the text, making it difficult to find and revisit a link.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Mark -
the hovering over links thing is just a very odd css IE behaviour. Happens on lots of sites, I've never seen a fix for it. Scrivs' site has been doing that since at least 2 redesigns ago, or last week, whichever is longer (just kidding, paul. heh)
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
That sounds like an excuse JC. Sure it happens on a lot of sites viewed in the "evil, but still market leading, even though it's leader is no longer the richest man on earth, IE browser, but it also doesn't happen on a lot of sites.
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
I'm just going to jump on the band wagon and shout "public". It's very interesting :)
And topic-wise, it's hard to make suggestion, because if you don't like it, you obviously wont write about it. But generally what gets me off is the "business" related stuff, and you "bashing" other people's sites :) Just don't write about css techniques, we've all had enough of that I guess.
Brian Andersen
I like the current straight forward design but if I had to make one suggestion, it would be to change the dark-red to something brighter.
Bart N. (http://index.percept.be)
Mark -- Have you had a bad week? Several of the replies I've seen from you the past few days have had a hint of hostility or something. Hope all is well, and if not, maybe we can have somebody whacked for you? :-)
It's an IE bug that occurs when you either bold text on hover or change its background color. Happens in IE 5.5 and 6.
Here's a reference. Here's a less obvious one that has a little more info on the specific conditions in which it will occur.
There's no real "fix" for it, but Paul can make it go away by removing the a: hover background color change. An overline or font color change or something would do it. Or he could change the padding from % to something else.
Now what I'd really like to find is the answer to the problem on Milbertus.com -- half the time I load that up in IE, a significant portion of the text doesn't display til I either mouse over it or highlight it.
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
oh, and I didn't answer your original request, Paul... yes, public, of course. This time, take screenshots of each stage for posterity, include them (as clickable thumbnails) in each update post. That way folks reading back in your archives will be able to see what the heck you're talking about. :-)
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
You're very perceptive there JC.
I've been working 9-1 (that'd be 16 hrs - not 4) everyday last week up to and including Sunday on a big project. Wouldn't classify it as a "bad" week, just a long and tiring one. Remnants of my exhaustion and frustration of not really seeing my wife and son for a week hangover, I guess.
I apologize to you, Paul (who was kind enough to help me through a CSS brainfart) and the readership for my crankiness.
Back on topic (well, sort of...)
Paul, you need to remove that hover tag ;)
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
Yeah I knew what Mark was going through so I am letting him slide for now :) Otherwise I will have to mention the help he needed in regards to CSS :-P
Well while doing some pre-pre-pre-pre-planning it seems I have come up with a grand scheme that goes beyond whitespace for this redesign project. I am so ambitious it sickens me.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
So we can't have anyone put on ice? damn. there goes my week. heh. That sucks about the workload, Mark. Hope it doesn't come back to that level again anytime soon.
Scrivs... step away from the computer. go out and grab a couple of spring break gals from up north and take them out clubbing. :-)
JC (http://thelionsweb.com/weblog)
Bout to go "socialize" right now...of course I will be thinking about this redesign the whole time I am out.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
I would like the text size to be resizable... oh, wait.. you already did that. I would like the content to be updated all the time.... umm.. you already do that... crap... how about a new logo? Ok, ok... I know.. I would like there to be a button that I can click on the site where it will zap and wake paul up and remind him that he needs to update the editorial calendar. This could be a function where just I have access to use it, but depending on voltage used, I think it would be best if everyone can use it on the site... at any time, and click as many times as they like.
ok, in all seriousness, I really don't think you should touch a damn thing, I like it how it is and we users fear change! ...damnit! :)
Nick Finck (http://www.digital-web.com)
public redesigns = better
There is more room for feedback, and you'll be more open to suggestions. Remember at the last stage of your redesign, you said "you can make a suggestion, but it's not very likely I'll use it" or something like that?
This time, make sure you save the CSS files and take screenshots so we can look back!
Tom
Hi,
I was visiting this website:
http://www.golistenlive.net/columns/website-redesign.asp
It has a lot of tips on "Why, How and When" to re-design a website. It seems
to me a very useful link. I just thought of sharing it. Below is some of its
sayings:
Why
There are many reasons why you want to redesign your site. Your tired of the
look, want something new, changing your bands "look", site just doesn't work,
and many others. What we need to look at is does your reason merit a redesign.
If you have a fan base then they are probably use to your sites look. If
industry personnel have research your band then there is also recognition of the
old design. You may also be looking at some down time for your site.
............................. for more visit the link on the top of this
comment.
Payment Gateway India (http://services.eliteral.com/)
I would like to see #'s on comments to make it easier to refer to a specific comment.
Jason Shao (http://jay.shao.org)
Public.
Possibly move the 'recently commented' list to make it more promient - it's a good indicator of the 'hot' topics on your site.
Add more colour - wanna see how you handle it.
Gordon (http://www.snowgoon.co.uk)
Maybe I’m alone here, but I like whitespace as is. Unless you plan on doing a major overhaul of the way you present entries I recommend not changing much. You have something good here; I wouldn’t mess with it too much (though I know what it’s like to want to put your new ideas on the Web).
Vinnie Garcia (http://blog.vinniegarcia.com)
@Paul
Go public with the redesign that way we can all learn from your process.
@JC
I know what you're talking about with Milbertus.com, I've come across that in doing some CSS based layouts for my company, and you know what I found fixes it? 'position: relative'
Yes indeed the famous 'position: relative' fix also fixes this very strange missing text behavior, at least it's worked for me in the past.
James
"...I would like the text size to be resizable... oh, wait.. you already did that..."
Where's that function?
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
I think Nick has got it right. Dont change a thing.
Except maybe Anchors for each comment, or/and number each comment.
If you really want to add images, how about icon for your catagories? Appart from that, the lack of images is part of why I like this site.
phil baines (http://www.wubbleyew.com/blog/)
Where's that function?
It's built into your browser! You can't blame the web developer for not implementing a feature that the software you are already using to view the page with already has :-)
I am a fan of people learning to use software over cluttering web interfaces to make things "easier" for the user.
Jason
Overall, I really like the site, it's easy to read and navigate, except for the following, which are relatively minor.
1. I would like a wee splash of color. Maybe a subtle background. The grey-on-grey-on-grey with the drab brick red is...uh...uninspiring, especially coming from a guy who is known for spotlighting amazing designs (and picking them apart ;).
2. Why isn't the 9 rules network in the sidebar on all the archive pages? I always have to click through to the index...
3. Why isn't the sidebar uniform throughout the site?
4. The arrow you use with your lists are misleading; they look very much like 'click this' icons and are always tricking me. Maybe a different list image for non-link lists? Widgetopia is a great reference...
5. The summary in the sidebar on individual archives is redundant; why not add the summaries to each of the last 10 in the sidebar instead?
6. The summaries don't say much most of the time (e.g. this entry, where the words 'time to' are added to the title; previous entry, where there's a perfectly good summary in the entry itself but the sidebar summary adds nothing).
7. Why only one entry on the index, and if there can be only one, why not have the full text?
gwen (http://www.gwenharlow.com/resources)
Yes, I am too Jason, and I am aware that I can do it through my browser, however, Nick's statement that I quoted was "you (inferring Paul) already did that"
My reply was "ok cool, Whitespace apparently has a style switcher which I must've missed." Hence the question, "where's that function?"
Mark Fusco (http://www.lightpierce.com/ltshdw)
gwen: Everything you listed is part of the reasons I already had for redesigning. I see I am going to have to write another entry to possibly reveal my plans.
I am glad to hear many of you like what you see and I like the site also. This isn't one of those "man I am tired of looking at this thing" type redesigns. This is a restructuring that involves multiple sites.
Mark: You silly boy.
Scrivs (http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/)
Why not have an initial page with a giant spinning logo flash animation? It would be so cool... and great branding too. What a great way to get in touch with an audience ;)
Justin (http://bluealpha.com)
(sorry if this is OT Scrvis)
Mark:
While it may have appeared that I was directing my comment right at you, it wasn't really. It was just written that way as a way to get my point across.
I assume that as a reader of this site you are very knowledgeable about the web and web browsers in general and would obviously know that you could resize text.
The bigger point here is that Joe AverageWebUser might not know about this functionality, and no one may be there to fill him in.
I would even argue that having a style switcher to change font sizes is detrimental in that if a user sees this on a website they may assume it is there because the browser can't do it on its own and the website is therefore providing enhanced functionality.
The same point can be made of print style sheets. Users who print documents off of the web regularly are more than likely acustomed to finding the "printer friendly version" which as we know with CSS is not necessary, websites have just to this point been providing enhanced functionality (in in a sense, with print CSS they still are, its just seemless to the user).
Jason
Correction: The same point can be made of printer friendly pages not print style sheets.
Many points can be made about my poor spelling and typing ...
Jason
I'd like to see more coverage of the business side of web design: project management, writing effective proposals, good business practices and such.
Will Pate (http://www.willpate.org)
no question about going public. please do.
I would second (third?) the the request for anchors/numbers for linking to specific comments as proposed by phil baines and Jason Shao
i fear change (along with Nick Finck).
would it be possible to restyle only css and keep the old layout as an alternate stylesheet?
or however you do it, just allow users the option of the old or new design?
i also (along with a few others) like the lack of image clutter. who needs images? we're here for the content, and it's easy to read.
maybe alternate stylesheets for images/noimages?
also another note, i still can't figure out a better way to see your last few posts than going to this month's archives.
the bottom navigation tends to have inconsistent post ordering.
the "last 10 entries" seems to be relative to the current article,
and the "recent entries" i just can't figure out. it doesn't match the post order in the monthly archives.
"recently commented" is almost useless to me since every post has so many comments that i probably won't read comments for a page more than once.
brewthatistrue
I agree with Nalim, Redesigning your website from time to time is so very important
Rahul (http://www.bombaybiz.net)
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#1
I liked the "public redesign" process. It kind of brought us into your thought process and it was fun to watch.
And images? I think I would have a heart attack if I saw them on here...but it would be interesting to see what you can come up with.
Todd (http://www.monkeyhouselounge.com/loungeact/)